Long Tube Headers & Check Engine Lights Explained

[cloud9]

Unloading the car tonight it occurred to me that the CEL actually fills in the picture quite nicely. Getting closer to pulling the trigger on the LTHs.

http://imageshack.us/mobile/gallery.php

We need a better link than that buddy ! ;D

Sorry tried to do it from my phone.....fixt

 

[CaliMR]

I'm used to the CEL meaning I have knock from my old turbo tune, I would probably freak out every time I noticed it

 

[lbp]

FUEL QUESTION WITH KOOKS HEADERS/TEST PIPES
- Any experience out there as to whether race fuel (104 no-lead) will allow the engine to run a bit stronger with the better-breathing KOOKS setup?
I understand from posts on the AeroForce forum that the B302 is set up to have a stoic of 14.7 (if I recall correctly) which essentially is for the Federal E85 fuel rating.
I am also wondering if a non-ethenoled fuel such as I am considering will confuse the 302 ECU.
Thanks in advance for any posts.
Lee.

 

[PeteInCT]

Hey - if you make that thing too damn fast I'm renegging on my: invite to you for LRP !! ;D

 

[nota4re]

- Any experience out there as to whether race fuel (104 no-lead) will allow the engine to run a bit stronger with the better-breathing KOOKS setup?

Higher octane is cheap insurance in my opinion, and I'd recommend running it on the track when it is available. Theoretically, it's going to allow the engine to stay with a more advanced timing since you would be mitigating the chance that the knock sensors might chime in.

No problem with the widebands. The ECU will target high 12's for an A/F ration when you ae beating on it at the track. 14.7:1 is only there for karuuuzzzing.

 

[gremlinsteve]

well
i wonder if a set of the vibrate performance GENIS style converters will also help remedy the issue with the cel. seems its worth a shot.

 

[steveespo]

- Any experience out there as to whether race fuel (104 no-lead) will allow the engine to run a bit stronger with the better-breathing KOOKS setup?

Higher octane is cheap insurance in my opinion, and I'd recommend running it on the track when it is available. Theoretically, it's going to allow the engine to stay with a more advanced timing since you would be mitigating the chance that the knock sensors might chime in.

No problem with the widebands. The ECU will target high 12's for an A/F ration when you ae beating on it at the track. 14.7:1 is only there for karuuuzzzing.

+1 on this. I run 100 octane Sunoco mixed 50/50 then top off with it all day at the track. $8.50/gallon but IMHO cheap insurance since I do run a CAI bigger throttle body and headers with a now Steeda 93 tune. I do want to swap a N/A Cobra Jet 5.0 in ther at some time but do want to use my motor as a swap into a 69 Sportsroof
Steve

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

I don't disagree with what you're saying about track key here, but if that's the case and advancing the ignition timing, leaning out the AF, and retarding the TI-VCT doesn't make more peak power then how are the aftermarket tuners making 15-30 more peak hp with their tunes?

Let's not forget that TracKey is still emisssions-legal, so if you venture into the aftermarket, the tuner isn't limited by this regulation.

On the other hand, you and your tuner need to discuss exactly what you'd be doing with the car so they know that the car is going to be run balls-to-the-wall for 20 mins+ at a time, not some 12-second then rest for 45 minute drag race BS where an aggressive tune might not really hurt the engine.

 

[Justin]

I don't disagree with what you're saying about track key here, but if that's the case and advancing the ignition timing, leaning out the AF, and retarding the TI-VCT doesn't make more peak power then how are the aftermarket tuners making 15-30 more peak hp with their tunes?

Let's not forget that TracKey is still emisssions-legal, so if you venture into the aftermarket, the tuner isn't limited by this regulation.

On the other hand, you and your tuner need to discuss exactly what you'd be doing with the car so they know that the car is going to be run balls-to-the-wall for 20 mins+ at a time, not some 12-second then rest for 45 minute drag race BS where an aggressive tune might not really hurt the engine.

words can hurt you know lol

 

[PeteInCT]

I don't disagree with what you're saying about track key here, but if that's the case and advancing the ignition timing, leaning out the AF, and retarding the TI-VCT doesn't make more peak power then how are the aftermarket tuners making 15-30 more peak hp with their tunes?

Let's not forget that TracKey is still emisssions-legal, so if you venture into the aftermarket, the tuner isn't limited by this regulation.

On the other hand, you and your tuner need to discuss exactly what you'd be doing with the car so they know that the car is going to be run balls-to-the-wall for 20 mins+ at a time, not some 12-second then rest for 45 minute drag race BS where an aggressive tune might not really hurt the engine.

AZ - The "balls-to-the-wall for 20 mins+ at a time" part of your comment is the most resounding to me. True, Ford is limited by emissions standards, however if we look at what this engine is putting out and at what revs it is doing it I think it's fair to say that if it's pushed much harder at all you could be signing up for a premature engine job. Some guys don't mind the fact that after a year or so of hard track driving they need to rebuild their engines and are willing to do so. That said, I think the typical 'rice rocket' tuner menatlity doesn't apply to the Boss, where you can squeeze 100+ more hp out of an engine and it has a fair to good chance of holding up over some period of time, especially in a lighter car. I did it with my Audi TTS (+90 HP, +110 ft/lbs), but that engine was built in a totally detuned mode from what it was capable of. And when I did that my DSG transmission was not a happy camper at all, so I did have other issues to deal with.

The other thing is that if any tuner really believes he has a great tune that is appropriate over time he is selling snake oil. This engine is totally new and no one (including Ford themselves) has a long track record with it. Any additional HP you squeeze out of it based on tune changes I believe has a potential detrimental effect on the engine. The Kooks scenario (or similar ones if they exist) seems like the only safe and viable alternative to add some level of HP, since it still allows the factory tune to work as it was designed within it's designed parameters.

For me personally, I would like to get many years of enjoyment of my track car and don't want to go broke keeping it running Investment in suspension, brakes, weight savings and my own driving capabilities to me is worth more that 20 - 30 HP and potential associated problems. IMHO ;D

 

[nota4re]

To add to Pete's comments - the tuning for the new Mustangs IS DIFFERENT than all previous Mustangs because of the on-board wideband and the ecu's preference to make real-time adjustments based on wideband input. In ALL previous year Mustangs, open-loop mode meant open loop. Tuners could modify multiple tables and could depend on the ecu using those values. You might say tha the new ecu's have "a mind of their own" because they are no longer "blind" to real-time A/F'S.

Several months ago when we first started modifying and putting these cars on the dyno, we were in contact with several tuners - many of whom had WAY too much confidence and erroneously assumed that they can tune the car just like they learned how with '06's, '07's, 08's, '09's, and '10's. In fact, many are still maintaining that you MUST have a tune to go along with your headers and exhaust modifications. While this was absolutely true in previous years, to say so now really reveals a lot of ignorance regarding the new motors and engine management.

In short, I'm with Pete. I wouldn't dream of using an aftermarket tune in a track car, 1) because the accumulated knowledge is just not there yet and; 2) much (certainly not all) historical tuning expertise is out the window. Running a lopey idle tune on the street or maybe some seat-of-the-pants feeling improvement for the street I might definitely consider. But, when I put the car on the track at 100F and plan to keep the rpms CONTINUOUSLY between 5K-7.5K RPM, it will ONLY have a Ford tune in it.

 

[cloud9]

To add to Pete's comments - the tuning for the new Mustangs IS DIFFERENT than all previous Mustangs because of the on-board wideband and the ecu's preference to make real-time adjustments based on wideband input. In ALL previous year Mustangs, open-loop mode meant open loop. Tuners could modify multiple tables and could depend on the ecu using those values. You might say tha the new ecu's have "a mind of their own" because they are no longer "blind" to real-time A/F'S.

Several months ago when we first started modifying and putting these cars on the dyno, we were in contact with several tuners - many of whom had WAY too much confidence and erroneously assumed that they can tune the car just like they learned how with '06's, '07's, 08's, '09's, and '10's. In fact, many are still maintaining that you MUST have a tune to go along with your headers and exhaust modifications. While this was absolutely true in previous years, to say so now really reveals a lot of ignorance regarding the new motors and engine management.

In short, I'm with Pete. I wouldn't dream of using an aftermarket tune in a track car, 1) because the accumulated knowledge is just not there yet and; 2) much (certainly not all) historical tuning expertise is out the window. Running a lopey idle tune on the street or maybe some seat-of-the-pants feeling improvement for the street I might definitely consider. But, when I put the car on the track at 100F and plan to keep the rpms CONTINUOUSLY between 5K-7.5K RPM, it will ONLY have a Ford tune in it.

I completely agree with this as well. Mine was crying for mercy earlier this week after each session and I just can't imagine pushing it much harder and getting any longevity out of it. TK seems to idle rougher than normal on cool down laps and startup before the next session....kind of like when your basketball coach made you do suicides and sends you back out again when you're already about to puke. At least I have the confidence that Ford fully vetted their tunes on the track in similar conditions to find the weaknesses and issues.....on their dime not ours.

 

[Justin]

more and more I read about autocrossing the more I am glad I am only into drag racing and street cruising. cant tune the car cant do this or do that or it will blow up (maybe)

 

[cloud9]

Road America this week......115 Porsches......at least 4 blown motors...several others hauled off on flatbeds or towed off and not sure exactly what their issues were....the two motors where I knew the guys had them tuned. The field was much lighter by the end of the second day. It comes down to do you want to go fast for a long time or do you want to go really fast for a short time

 

[Justin]

Road America this week......115 Porsches......at least 4 blown motors...several others hauled off on flatbeds or towed off and not sure exactly what their issues were....the two motors where I knew the guys had them tuned. The field was much lighter by the end of the second day. It comes down to do you want to go fast for a long time or do you want to go really fast for a short time

whats the saying? speed how much you want to spend?

 

[lbp]

To add to Pete's comments - the tuning for the new Mustangs IS DIFFERENT than all previous Mustangs because of the on-board wideband and the ecu's preference to make real-time adjustments based on wideband input. In ALL previous year Mustangs, open-loop mode meant open loop. Tuners could modify multiple tables and could depend on the ecu using those values. You might say tha the new ecu's have "a mind of their own" because they are no longer "blind" to real-time A/F'S.

Several months ago when we first started modifying and putting these cars on the dyno, we were in contact with several tuners - many of whom had WAY too much confidence and erroneously assumed that they can tune the car just like they learned how with '06's, '07's, 08's, '09's, and '10's. In fact, many are still maintaining that you MUST have a tune to go along with your headers and exhaust modifications. While this was absolutely true in previous years, to say so now really reveals a lot of ignorance regarding the new motors and engine management.

In short, I'm with Pete. I wouldn't dream of using an aftermarket tune in a track car, 1) because the accumulated knowledge is just not there yet and; 2) much (certainly not all) historical tuning expertise is out the window. Running a lopey idle tune on the street or maybe some seat-of-the-pants feeling improvement for the street I might definitely consider. But, when I put the car on the track at 100F and plan to keep the rpms CONTINUOUSLY between 5K-7.5K RPM, it will ONLY have a Ford tune in it.

OK.
Anyone know where Ford has set the management window on their closed loop?, i.,e., for example, some say that the ecu will only use up to the benefit of about 93 or so octane before the track key performance ceiling is reached and that running 100 or 100+ octane is a waste of money, although it could be regarded as relatively cheap insurance to run up the octane a bit, as others have noted.

It should be mentioned that depending on your tune (Motec, etc. - I do not mean our 302's here) that some motors will lose performance if too mush octane is deployed..

Personally, I do not notice any more power on 100+ octane, however, the throttle does feel quite a bit lighter on the foot.

 

[gremlinsteve]

i personally think its a waste of time money and effort to run the 100-110 octane fuels. as you have stated.
the tune is only going to see xxx amount of timing. once it reaches that threshhold its a mute point.

could you spike a load of fuel with a few gallons of the 100? sure. i think thats a better choice. making up a 95 or so octane.
the higher the octane the faster the burn. hence adding timing to make the power.

and im still thinking that the vibrate performance GENIS style cat will help get rid of that pesky cel code for cat in-efficiency...
if it can be placed close enough to the head to get the temp up fast enough to satisfy the computer.

steve

 

[PeteInCT]

I hve run 100 octane twice with my Boss. On both occasions my lap times showed no significant variations and it felt the same. The only change I did notice was my drive home form the local track (I left the trailer home that day) showed an increase of about 2 to 3 MPG. Not worth it for gas that cost me $9.00/gal ;D

I have heard a rumor that the TK program can take advantage of up to 100 octane, if it really does and what the differences are I do not know. I thought SMittyTX has stated that the 302S/R required 100 octane. Not sure if that has any bearing on us at all.

 

[cloud9]

I hve run 100 octane twice with my Boss. On both occasions my lap times showed no significant variations and it felt the same. The only change I did notice was my drive home form the local track (I left the trailer home that day) showed an increase of about 2 to 3 MPG. Not worth it for gas that cost me $9.00/gal ;D

I have heard a rumor that the TK program can take advantage of up to 100 octane, if it really does and what the differences are I do not know. I thought SMittyTX has stated that the 302S/R required 100 octane. Not sure if that has any bearing on us at all.

I asked the question and was told it will, but the gains are "minimal" so I don't know how to quantify that. Basically was told not worth the expense. That said, I understand the thought behind the safety margin of higher octane at the track. I typically run 93 and bring it with me.

 

[lbp]

I hve run 100 octane twice with my Boss. On both occasions my lap times showed no significant variations and it felt the same. The only change I did notice was my drive home form the local track (I left the trailer home that day) showed an increase of about 2 to 3 MPG. Not worth it for gas that cost me $9.00/gal ;D

I have heard a rumor that the TK program can take advantage of up to 100 octane, if it really does and what the differences are I do not know. I thought SMittyTX has stated that the 302S/R required 100 octane. Not sure if that has any bearing on us at all.

Well, yes...
I suppose what I am trying to figure out is whether a freer flowing Kooks setup will benefit/use the extra octane, in particular, as other have noted, since the ecu will add more fuel when it sees the increase in flow.