cloud9
Gary
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Sounds like there's a decent chance it was low fuel then.
Sounds like there's a decent chance it was low fuel then.
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P030X Random Misfire & Limp Mode Questionaire and Discussion Thread
- Thread starterzzyzx
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The "old" and the "new"
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
it is possible I suppose, however as I mentioned, I know I have run down to a 1/4 or less at Laguna Seca and never occured.... and one of the times it had be tween 1/4 and half...wouldn't think that would be the case, but we'll keep it fuller there and hope that is the easy solution, I always like simple solutions that work!!...Thanks guys for your comments.
it is possible I suppose, however as I mentioned, I know I have run down to a 1/4 or less at Laguna Seca and never occured.... and one of the times it had be tween 1/4 and half...wouldn't think that would be the case, but we'll keep it fuller there and hope that is the easy solution, I always like simple solutions that work!!...Thanks guys for your comments.
cloud9
Gary
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Hmmmm......
http://forums.themustangsource.com/f804/misfire-515375/index3/#post6586993
Hmmmm......
http://forums.themustangsource.com/f804/misfire-515375/index3/#post6586993
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I don't think it's fuel starvation or whatever. I just got back from the track on Saturday and had the same CEL/limp-mode that I get every time I go to the track (never on the street). My event occurred when I still had plenty of fuel left. In fact, I eventually ran the fuel down to "18 miles until empty" (easy to do at 6.2 mpg) and never had a problem.
For myself, I also eliminated the redline issue. There was no connection.
However, I drive on a really bumpy track and I still think extreme vibrations are a factor.
I don't think it's fuel starvation or whatever. I just got back from the track on Saturday and had the same CEL/limp-mode that I get every time I go to the track (never on the street). My event occurred when I still had plenty of fuel left. In fact, I eventually ran the fuel down to "18 miles until empty" (easy to do at 6.2 mpg) and never had a problem.
For myself, I also eliminated the redline issue. There was no connection.
However, I drive on a really bumpy track and I still think extreme vibrations are a factor.
cloud9
Gary
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I fuel starved the 2013 GT I was driving out at Chuckwalla three separate times last month. Once I got down to 1/4 tank or less it would start cutting out on sustained high G turns, and there was no CEL or limp mode, it was definitely "out of gas" but would come back once out of the turn.
They are two separate issues though. I also only get the random misfire, or specific misfire codes on the track. Usually it's just a CEL, but occasionally it goes into limp mode. Sometimes I'll even have a code with no CEL.....presumably pending?
I fuel starved the 2013 GT I was driving out at Chuckwalla three separate times last month. Once I got down to 1/4 tank or less it would start cutting out on sustained high G turns, and there was no CEL or limp mode, it was definitely "out of gas" but would come back once out of the turn.
They are two separate issues though. I also only get the random misfire, or specific misfire codes on the track. Usually it's just a CEL, but occasionally it goes into limp mode. Sometimes I'll even have a code with no CEL.....presumably pending?
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I believe you're right about this; the computer makes a baseline to tune out "normal" vibrations but hard bumps in the road or track could push the computer outside its comfort range here. I did notice that my misfire limps at Chuckwalla typically occurred after two things happened in rapid succession:
Hitting a large curbing with one side of the car, under heaving braking, then going to WOT in 4th gear from around 3500-4000 RPM (high load).
Previously when I encountered the misfire limp in Arizona it was after going over a large hump in the track that unweights the car, and being at WOT under high load 3500-4000 RPM in 3rd gear during or just after that bump.
Both of these scenarios also involve right hand turns, FWIW.
Edit: These occurred when using TracKey; I haven't run the silver key on the track since TK was released to the public in November '11. I have never experienced a misfire CEL in street driving (spirited or otherwise) with either key.
Jimmy Pribble said:
I believe you're right about this; the computer makes a baseline to tune out "normal" vibrations but hard bumps in the road or track could push the computer outside its comfort range here. I did notice that my misfire limps at Chuckwalla typically occurred after two things happened in rapid succession:
Hitting a large curbing with one side of the car, under heaving braking, then going to WOT in 4th gear from around 3500-4000 RPM (high load).
Previously when I encountered the misfire limp in Arizona it was after going over a large hump in the track that unweights the car, and being at WOT under high load 3500-4000 RPM in 3rd gear during or just after that bump.
Both of these scenarios also involve right hand turns, FWIW.
Edit: These occurred when using TracKey; I haven't run the silver key on the track since TK was released to the public in November '11. I have never experienced a misfire CEL in street driving (spirited or otherwise) with either key.
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Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Update to my previous post. i have been driving the car for over a week since they did the updated tcb and the Ford engineer worked on the car. It worked pretty well for a couple of days, but i have now been getting the cel/mis-fire almost daily combined with the solid check engine light and crank sensor code. I called the dealer and they contacted Ford. Ford will be sending the engineer back out next Tues. to work on it again. We'll see what happens... although now going on my eight time taking the car in for this same issue, i am not too hopeful.
Update to my previous post. i have been driving the car for over a week since they did the updated tcb and the Ford engineer worked on the car. It worked pretty well for a couple of days, but i have now been getting the cel/mis-fire almost daily combined with the solid check engine light and crank sensor code. I called the dealer and they contacted Ford. Ford will be sending the engineer back out next Tues. to work on it again. We'll see what happens... although now going on my eight time taking the car in for this same issue, i am not too hopeful.
cloud9
Gary
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
That's basically the explanation I got back in May 2011 as far as the cause.....now what's the fix??ArizonaGT said:
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I dunno, but Chris' car on the AED tune didn't seem to have any sort of issues at Chuckwalla.
When I drove it or when he drove it we were using 4th gear for the entire track, meaning same 3500-4000 RPM high-load WOT scenarios and bumps...
I dunno, but Chris' car on the AED tune didn't seem to have any sort of issues at Chuckwalla.
When I drove it or when he drove it we were using 4th gear for the entire track, meaning same 3500-4000 RPM high-load WOT scenarios and bumps...
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Yours is worse than most but many of us have been experiencing this. It's very frustrating. Ford does read this forum and I sure hope they come up with a solution soon. My fear is now that the cars are out of production they forget about us.shoveldoc said:
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Check this out. I loaded-up all three track events in which I experienced limp modes and isolated the CEL channel to see if I could correlate the CEL events with locations on the track. This was to test my "bumpy track" theory. Holy crackers! Out of 18 "limp mode" events, 12 of them occur at the same place on the track! Four others occur at another corner and then there are two outliers.
The thing of it is - that corner isn't particularly bumpy. Neither of the two corners in question is bumpy. The only thing I can think of that they have in common is that they are both downhill corners. What the H is going on here???
Check this out. I loaded-up all three track events in which I experienced limp modes and isolated the CEL channel to see if I could correlate the CEL events with locations on the track. This was to test my "bumpy track" theory. Holy crackers! Out of 18 "limp mode" events, 12 of them occur at the same place on the track! Four others occur at another corner and then there are two outliers.
The thing of it is - that corner isn't particularly bumpy. Neither of the two corners in question is bumpy. The only thing I can think of that they have in common is that they are both downhill corners. What the H is going on here???
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I've suspected since my intial dealings with Ford and Ford Racing that this is more than just a "programing" problem. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't have fixed it by now if it was. Anyhow, I was going through some emails from Ford Racing and some service reports from one of my intial visits for misfires and I came across something that may be relevant. I expereinced a U41XX code along with the P300 / P308. The dealer couldn't tell me what it was so I emailed Ford Racing about it. This is not a standard code that comes up with a scan tool or would cause a CEL on it's own - it's logged somewhere in the PCM and can be accessed by the dealer when they do an extensive diagnostic. Ford Racing blew it off but told me it was a communication error code that had something to the with the chassis of the car. Based on most of the info collected over the past year and Jimmy's information above (very nice work, Jimmy), the CEL's tend to correspond to bumps, turns, pitch, etc.
CEL's occuring when they are + chassis communication errors = Very Interesting! I could be stretching it but this seems to support my initial feeling that it's the wiring harness and/or sensors that are causing the problem.
I've suspected since my intial dealings with Ford and Ford Racing that this is more than just a "programing" problem. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't have fixed it by now if it was. Anyhow, I was going through some emails from Ford Racing and some service reports from one of my intial visits for misfires and I came across something that may be relevant. I expereinced a U41XX code along with the P300 / P308. The dealer couldn't tell me what it was so I emailed Ford Racing about it. This is not a standard code that comes up with a scan tool or would cause a CEL on it's own - it's logged somewhere in the PCM and can be accessed by the dealer when they do an extensive diagnostic. Ford Racing blew it off but told me it was a communication error code that had something to the with the chassis of the car. Based on most of the info collected over the past year and Jimmy's information above (very nice work, Jimmy), the CEL's tend to correspond to bumps, turns, pitch, etc.
CEL's occuring when they are + chassis communication errors = Very Interesting! I could be stretching it but this seems to support my initial feeling that it's the wiring harness and/or sensors that are causing the problem.
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Ford has confirmed long ago that the wiring harness, cam position and crank position sensors, as well as the oil valve solenoid, can cause these CEL's. I don't believe they are the only causes....
As for fuel starvation - I have found that I can't run for long with less than 1/4 tank on most tracks - especially ones with high speed turns.
-Pete
Ford has confirmed long ago that the wiring harness, cam position and crank position sensors, as well as the oil valve solenoid, can cause these CEL's. I don't believe they are the only causes....
As for fuel starvation - I have found that I can't run for long with less than 1/4 tank on most tracks - especially ones with high speed turns.
-Pete
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I was looking in the wrong place. The corner isn't bumpy, the braking zone right in front of it is. The max vertical acceleration (red triangles) for any given lap tends to occur right before going into limp mode.
Follow along (CW on track):
1. The car is flat-out through a right hand kink (Section 8 ).
2. At just under 100 mph (not shown), brakes are applied (leftmost vertical orange lines).
3. High vertical loads occur, including most instances of maximum vertical acceleration. Bumpy track, exacerbated by fully compressed suspension under braking, says I.
4. Brakes are released (second set of vertical orange lines), the turn is executed.
5. Limp mode occurs (red triangles on blue vertical lines).
As postulated by others, this is enough to convince me that this is a "mechanical" problem having to do with sensors or the wiring harness or the like. Since I know where and how to recreate this problem, my plan is to take the car back out, get the limp mode and them return to my local dealership, which is open on Saturdays. "I was driving at speed in the hill country on some bumpy roads, when suddenly..."
I was looking in the wrong place. The corner isn't bumpy, the braking zone right in front of it is. The max vertical acceleration (red triangles) for any given lap tends to occur right before going into limp mode.
Follow along (CW on track):
1. The car is flat-out through a right hand kink (Section 8 ).
2. At just under 100 mph (not shown), brakes are applied (leftmost vertical orange lines).
3. High vertical loads occur, including most instances of maximum vertical acceleration. Bumpy track, exacerbated by fully compressed suspension under braking, says I.
4. Brakes are released (second set of vertical orange lines), the turn is executed.
5. Limp mode occurs (red triangles on blue vertical lines).
As postulated by others, this is enough to convince me that this is a "mechanical" problem having to do with sensors or the wiring harness or the like. Since I know where and how to recreate this problem, my plan is to take the car back out, get the limp mode and them return to my local dealership, which is open on Saturdays. "I was driving at speed in the hill country on some bumpy roads, when suddenly..."
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I may be out in left field, but does this happen with electronic nannies turned off? I'm asking because my bimmer will stall if I'm stuck on ice and try to keep the rpm's up to get unstuck. I have to turn the nannies off. It's a different situation but it still backs everything off until it's happy. Could the hysteresis setting be out of tolerance?
I may be out in left field, but does this happen with electronic nannies turned off? I'm asking because my bimmer will stall if I'm stuck on ice and try to keep the rpm's up to get unstuck. I have to turn the nannies off. It's a different situation but it still backs everything off until it's happy. Could the hysteresis setting be out of tolerance?
cloud9
Gary
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I can't speak for everyone, but myself and many others posting in this thread run with AdvanceTrac off, which is as much as you can shut them off.racered302 said:
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Left field thinking often produces fruit. I was going to dismissively say that I always run with the nannies off, but then I remembered that it isn't always true. In fact, you had me scrambling back to the AiM analysis software. I haven't made a big deal out of this, but across those three separate track events, most limp mode events happened in the first day I collected data. That day was unusual for many reasons. It was not an ordinary open track day for me; I was instructing at an Audi event, so I think I gave student rides every time I drove the Boss. That means I wasn't doing my own thing, so I lazily left the nannies on. I'm not a natural instructor, so I think my mind was just focused elsewhere and once underway, I didn't see the need to waste time pulling in to turn off AdvanceTrac.
I studied those logs, but could not find any correlation between "ESP" events and Limp Mode, other than the aforementioned high vertical acceleration often produced an ESP event and then Limp Mode.
But this line of thinking then sparked another memory. Check this out:
* Feb. 26, 2012 - 15 limp mode events
* July 2012 - The track was repaved!!! This video is from the flat-out kink before the braking zone which causes the high vertical acceleration loads.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INKjwejRf9w[/youtube]
* Aug. 25, 2012 - 2 limp mode events
* Mar. 24, 2013 - 3 limp mode events
Nothing new, but it reinforces the general cause in my mind so much so, that I intend to find a suitable road in town on which to generate the code and then go promptly to the dealer. Probably no need to wait for the track.
racered302 said:
Left field thinking often produces fruit. I was going to dismissively say that I always run with the nannies off, but then I remembered that it isn't always true. In fact, you had me scrambling back to the AiM analysis software. I haven't made a big deal out of this, but across those three separate track events, most limp mode events happened in the first day I collected data. That day was unusual for many reasons. It was not an ordinary open track day for me; I was instructing at an Audi event, so I think I gave student rides every time I drove the Boss. That means I wasn't doing my own thing, so I lazily left the nannies on. I'm not a natural instructor, so I think my mind was just focused elsewhere and once underway, I didn't see the need to waste time pulling in to turn off AdvanceTrac.
I studied those logs, but could not find any correlation between "ESP" events and Limp Mode, other than the aforementioned high vertical acceleration often produced an ESP event and then Limp Mode.
But this line of thinking then sparked another memory. Check this out:
* Feb. 26, 2012 - 15 limp mode events
* July 2012 - The track was repaved!!! This video is from the flat-out kink before the braking zone which causes the high vertical acceleration loads.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INKjwejRf9w[/youtube]
* Aug. 25, 2012 - 2 limp mode events
* Mar. 24, 2013 - 3 limp mode events
Nothing new, but it reinforces the general cause in my mind so much so, that I intend to find a suitable road in town on which to generate the code and then go promptly to the dealer. Probably no need to wait for the track.
cloud9
Gary
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
Good info Jimmy. My first track day this season will be on a "good" track that has two rough (bumpy) braking zones. My next rrack event will be a 3 day at newly paved BIR.
Good info Jimmy. My first track day this season will be on a "good" track that has two rough (bumpy) braking zones. My next rrack event will be a 3 day at newly paved BIR.
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
I have seen CEL's and CEL's with limp mode both with nannies fully engaged and also fully off....
If FORD is listening, and I believe you guys are, you REALLY need to step up and address the major issues with your limited production flagship car:
By now I cannot believe you do know know that these are real, they are common, and they are causing anyone who seriously track drives the car a number of issues. I personally have almost lost control of my Boss when I lost power to limp mode while in a large radius high speed turn at Mont Tremblant. We really need assistance here to keep these events safe and allow us to truly enjoy a most remarkable car.
-Pete
I have seen CEL's and CEL's with limp mode both with nannies fully engaged and also fully off....
If FORD is listening, and I believe you guys are, you REALLY need to step up and address the major issues with your limited production flagship car:
- CEL's/LIMP mode
- Clutch sticking issue
- Overheating issue
By now I cannot believe you do know know that these are real, they are common, and they are causing anyone who seriously track drives the car a number of issues. I personally have almost lost control of my Boss when I lost power to limp mode while in a large radius high speed turn at Mont Tremblant. We really need assistance here to keep these events safe and allow us to truly enjoy a most remarkable car.
-Pete
Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)
+1 This has happened to me on more than one occassion. I sure hope Ford helps us before someone has a mojor incident!
PeteInCT said:
+1 This has happened to me on more than one occassion. I sure hope Ford helps us before someone has a mojor incident!
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