P030X Random Misfire & Limp Mode Questionaire and Discussion Thread

[cloud9]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

I did get the P0300 a couple times over three days at BIR last weekend. Who knows, maybe the car is occasionally misfiring enough to throw a code ???

I also had the "check charging system" error intermittently for the last 3 sessions on Sunday. I drove it today on the black key and didn't get it once. I'll drive with TK tomorrow and see if it comes back. I'm assuming it will but I wish it would do it sooner rather than right before my next track day in case it actually turns out to be a bad alternator or wiring again.

 

[cloud9]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Does the engine "misfire" routinely and it just triggers a CEL if it exceeds a certain threshold? I have an Aeroforce gauge on my GT500 and one of the parameters you can pick is misfires. I occasionally selected it and was surprised to see them count up every time I drove it. I have no idea if they were legitimate misfires or not, but it never threw a CEL or a code. Interestingly there are a number of causes for misfires including our beloved clutch and transmission:

http://repairpal.com/misfires-and-their-causes

 

[zzyzx]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

I think the point the article is trying to make is that powertrain "jerkiness" is often misdiagnosed as misfire when in fact it's unrelated to the engine.

The hesitation I feel at times during partial throttle acceleration is what I would diagnose as a lean condition. This could be incrementing the misfire count, and perhaps is what results in the CEL. When I watch my AFRs, they seem on the lean side to me, honestly. I'll try to pay more attention and see what they read when I feel the hesitation.

That said, given the real issues various owners have experienced - bad wiring harnesses & broken pins in sensor connectors - I'm far more concerned than I would normally be. Not to mention a brand new car with less than 600 miles on it shouldn't have a chronic CEL issue at all. Disappointing to say the least.

 

[cloud9]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

The reason I mention the powertain is that was the reason given to me for the CEL issue showing up on track under aggressive driving conditions. I was told it was really just vibrations transmitted through the driveline into the crankshaft. The crankshaft position sensor was incorrectly reading them as misfires and throwing the code. The crankshaft sensor relearn was the fix.

**edited to change camshaft to crankshaft** (autocorrect on the phone.... )

 

[zzyzx]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Oh, OK now I get it! Thanks for the clarification. Good to know!

Sometimes I'm slow and not just on the track.

 

[zzyzx]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Update:

Scheduled to take the car in next Tuesday.

Had a good productive talk with the service manager at the dealership where I bought the Boss, who was very professional. He was on his way out for vacation, so that's why I'm taking it in next Tuesday.

He quickly looked for any bulletins regarding the codes in question and didn't come up with anything. He confirmed that this should not be a recurring issue and said they will be doing full diagnostics to troubleshoot the issue. Even lined up a rental car for me.

So, so far so good.

I'm going to write up a full summary of what others have reported and have it ready to hand to him when I take it in, so they have as much information as possible on hand.

 

[2012YellowBoss]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

So I have just returned from picking up my 2012 BOSS #2788 after having the Engine Replaced due to a #3 Spun Bearing... Everything fine, except for the EXACT same problems you are having with the Random Misfires... Even the EXACT same codes... Numerous P0300, followed by almost the same number of P0304 and a couple of "random" P0307 codes on the 75 mile drive back home from Dealership...

Most occurred with the Silver Key and went away (almost completely) when I switched to the Track Key about 1/2-way home... Only one time did it throw a P0304 + P0300 Code with the Track Key...

Since the engine was completely replaced, I'm guessing that I'll have to get my Local Dealer to do the Crankshaft Relearn Procedure to solve this... I will check all the connections in the AM when the engine cools... But since I also got the P0307 code a couple of times, I guessing that all the connections are just fine...

Just to clarify when you say random, random is the P0300 code. When you get a P0307 or P0304 the processor is picking up a misfire in those exact cylinders 7 and 4, so it is not random. For some reason you are getting a misfire that is real and not like what some like myself are seeing at the track, which is the engine cutting power to cylinders to stay at or below the rev limiter.

The re-learn process will not help using the silver colored key. It is only for the red key when used with the Trackey programming. Getting this done will not help from what you are saying is happening. You need bring the car into the dealer, don't clear the codes, and have them check it out. It is my opinion you have a real problem on several cylinders and not a random misfire being picked up by hitting a rev limiter or any other phantom reason.

If I had to guess I would say you wiring harness was damaged during the engine swap. It is normal to see the random P0300 code show up when a real problem like a P0307 code goes off from a real number 7 misfire. I have come to learn these harnesses are very sensitive but it just a guess from someone that is not certified to repair these cars.

 

[07SGT0547]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

The P0300 "Random/Multiple" Cylinder Misfire Detected was always accompanied by P0304 "Cylinder 4" Misfire Detected and sometimes with P0307 "Cylinder 7" Misfire Detected... Sorry for the mis-use of the word "random" when I was describing when the faults occurred... Codes were read and recorded using the Torque App on my Android Phone...

Anyhow, when the #4 or #7 cylinder would misfire, the CEL on the dash would flash, the A/C would quit blowing cold air and the engine would begin to run rough as there actually was a misfire in that particular cylinder... However, once I backed off of the throttle to find a suitable place to pull off the road, the CEL would go steady (meaning the misfire was over, but the code was still held in the PCM)... But on several occassions (had to reset it about 5 times) the CEL would go out on its own and the engine would run normally with the A/C putting out cold air again...

Please understand that my situation is completely different than just about anyone else, in that I am dealing with a BRAND NEW Engine that was reconnected to the existing wiring harnesses and same PCM (without being re-flashed back to OEM stock)... I also never drove the car over 65 MPH nor did I ever exceed 5,000 PRM during my 75-mile drive back from the Servicing Dealership...

I also used the SILVER key for the first 45 miles and had the most problems with the codes & misfires... On a whim, I switched to the RED key for the remaining 30 miles and never got a misfire until I got home and switched back to the SILVER key just to see what happens... However, because of the stored codes in the PCM, the TracKey Idle would never activate due to the previously detected misfires... And every time, including the 5-mile drive I took to the Dealership this AM, with the SILVER key, the Misfire on #4 would occur EVERY time I revved the engine past 4,000 RPM... So I slowed down, just to make sure the Flashing CEL (BAD) would go Steady (GOOD) and I drove right to my Local Dealer... Even left the engine running when I pulled into the service bay to explain what was going on...

Handed them the TracKey instructions (V1.3 pp 10-11) which reads:

If lopey idle is not being enabled because PCM is detecting misfires, it may be necessary to perform the neutral profile learn procedure. If the neutral profile learn procedure does not resolve the misfre codes, then the root cause of the misfires must be determined and repaired before lopey idle will be enabled.

Which is what they did and once the procedure was complete, I haven't had a single misfire code pop-up with either the SILVER or the RED keys... Lopey Idle works as advertised, and even made sure of it before the Tech asked me to take it for a test drive...

So maybe the "Crankshaft Re-learn Procedure" is something different than the " Neutral Profile Learn Procedure" ??? But, what I do know is that the engine runs like it should, with either key in the ignition... And I haven't been able to replicate throwing any codes like I did prior to taking it back in this AM... Nor did the Tech find any physical problems wrong with the wiring/coil for the #4 cylinder...

And FWIW ~ I never threw any kind of code during any of the 3 full days (once each in May, June & July) of Open Track I did prior to the Spun Bearing... Never even ran HOT nor went into LIMP MODE during any of those sessions either... Only when the #3 bearing spun, did the original engine begin to sieze/overheat while trying to exit the track in a safe but expeditious manner...

Feel free to ask me any other questions you might have... And if these Misfire codes do in fact pop back up once I get the engine broke-in and get back to the track, I'll be sure to post up with my findings... Good Luck to all those still having problems...

 

[2012YellowBoss]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Hopefully it is worked out for you now. I still have no idea why the re-learn process would have any effect on stopping misfire codes you were getting while running the silver key? There is a lot of things that do not make sense to me with this problem, for example my car Trackey idle stills works when the CEL is on and codes are present.

 

[KBBOSS1086]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

If the CEL is flashing then the car went into limp mode (that's my expereince). My feeling is that limp mode only comes on when there is a real potential problem but I could be wrong. It sounds to me that they damaged or didn't hook everything up properly when they fixed your motor. Hopefully, that is what it's from and you don't have the same problem many of us have, which Ford will not admit or easily correct.

The recent posts have made think about all my misfire issues. All but one of mine have occurred on the track. The one that didn't was a P0304 that occurred on the street under heavy load at aprox 5000rpm.

Does anyone know if it is possible or normal for specific cylinder misfires (#4 & #7 in my case) to generate a CEL due to hitting the rev limiter. I could be reading it worng but I'm getting the impression from the prior posts that the rev limiter may cause P0300 (random misfires - most likely phantom) but should not cause specific cylinder misfires. I'm also thinking that the car wouldn't go into limp mode for random misfires alone, like it does occassionally when i experience specific cylinder misfires.

Update - PM'd Dyesha (From Ford customer care) on the other Forum last Saturday and haven't received a response. No response from Ford Racing since begging for help either (Steve Horn - if you're reading this, you should be ashamed of your service - or lack there of). I will be at NJMP next Monday and am going to try to stay off the rev limiter all day and see what happens. If it keeps misfiring on Monday I will try one more dealer. After that, I really don't think I will know where to turn.

 

[cloud9]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

If the CEL is flashing then the car went into limp mode (that's my expereince). My feeling is that limp mode only comes on when there is a real potential problem but I could be wrong.

I have generally had the same experience. However, I routinely (say 20% of the time) have a flashing CEL at the END of a track session during the cool down lap. In most cases the PCM does NOT go into limp mode, however occasinally it does. In either case the flashing CEL clears itself after roughly 20-30 seconds. In a handful of those instances I have a P030x code, but most often no code is present.

 

[07SGT0547]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Think about it this way:

EVERYTHING about my 2012 BOSS 302, except the "break-in" oil consumption (which probably was due to the faulty rod bearing ~ my assumption), was working as advertised...

No codes, no limp mode, no misfires at the track, ran "hot" on 95* days at the track but NEVER overheated (until the spun bearing), got 23 MPG average down the highway @ 75 MPH...

So logic would say that the only "problem" I had with the misfire codes AFTER the engine swap, was that the original PCM/ECU wasn't re-calibrated to the replacement engine. I'm sure the sensors (wherever they are & whatever they measure) in the new engine can get things close enough for the engine to start, run and drive OK... But when I needed to cruise at highway speeds and higher RPM's there just wasn't enough "wiggle room" for the Electronic parts to match up to the Mechanical parts...

And I did specifically ask the Eng Tech this AM if I had done any damage while trying to drive it home last night with all these recurring misfires... And both he and the Service Writer didn't seem to think there was any reason to worry... Especially since I never drove more than 1/4 mile when any of the CEL's were flashing or the engine was going into actual limp mode...

So I'll give it the remaining 850 miles to break-in the new engine before I even think of taking it back out onto the track... And we'll see what happens between now and then... Not really sure what else I can say or do, unless the misfires actually come back ???

 

[2012YellowBoss]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Does anyone know if it is possible or normal for specific cylinder misfires (#4 & #7 in my case) to generate a CEL due to hitting the rev limiter. I could be reading it worng but I'm getting the impression from the prior posts that the rev limiter may cause P0300 (random misfires - most likely phantom) but should not cause specific cylinder misfires. I'm also thinking that the car wouldn't go into limp mode for random misfires alone, like it does occassionally when i experience specific cylinder misfires.

In my experience yes you can generate specific cylinder codes from hitting the rev limiter. In my case I have had P0300, P0304 and P0306 and know of others with the same. Also my Boss has gone into limp mode several time for the misfire codes and no other codes present. Other times I have throw only misfire codes without limp mode.

The guys at my dealer are very good about taking care of my car and try to find out facts about why these things happen (because they know I will ask :) but they have not found out what parameters set off limp mode. Some people here (if I remember correctly) have been over 250 temp wise and not gone into limp mode while others have.

So logic would say that the only "problem" I had with the misfire codes AFTER the engine swap, was that the original PCM/ECU wasn't re-calibrated to the replacement engine. I'm sure the sensors (wherever they are & whatever they measure) in the new engine can get things close enough for the engine to start, run and drive OK... But when I needed to cruise at highway speeds and higher RPM's there just wasn't enough "wiggle room" for the Electronic parts to match up to the Mechanical parts...

Again not a Ford certified mechanic but there would be no difference in the calibration for the same motor and car as far as I understand it.

 

[07SGT0547]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

The engine calibration itself is NOT different... Which is exactly why the Engine Tech didn't mess with or re-flash the actual TK Software again (And YES, I did ask him)... But the individual sensors (again, where they are and what they do are beyond me) in the engine & the heads need to "communicate" effectively with the PCM/ECU...

Think OLD SCHOOL for a minute (and I'm not doubting anyone's intelligence or level of experience, just trying to explain)... Engine timing on a 1969 BOSS 302 was done with a strobe light that pointed directly onto the tick marks printed on the outside of the crank itself... And the only way after rebuilding or replacing an engine was to make sure you were at TDC (Top Dead Center) before you were able to accurately set the timing by rotating the distributor (assuming points and condenser) by hand... Otherwise, the engine would cough and sputter (ie, misfire) when you revved into the higher RPM ranges...

Now in today's engines all of those functions are handled by electronic sensors that measure relative position, movement, etc. So my assumption was that all of the sensors in my 2012 BOSS 302 engine just needed to be "reset" so that the original PCM/ECU could know what to do to keep the engine running smoothly all the way from 0 to 7,500 RPM... And FWIW, the Eng Tech said he talked to someone at Ford Racing while going thru the process this morning just to verify what he was doing was correct... And the only thing he was told to do different than what the computer software was saying was to make sure and rev the engine all the way to 6,000 RPM instead of the stated 4,350 (which was also approx where the engine would routinely throw the P0300/P0304 codes)...

And I might be completely off base and talking out my ass, since I haven't tinkered with any electronic engine management system like this in my entire life... And we may have just gotten "lucky" with following a procedure intended to fix one problem, but ended up solving mine instead... But I do know that once this "procedure" was completed, EVERYTHING was back to normal... And unless I told you that the entire engine had been yanked out and replaced, you would never even know the difference...

But believe me, I have tried 3 different times today to replicate the code(s) I got on my drive to the Dealership earlier this morning... Went down the exact same roads at approx the same posted speeds and tried to shift as close to 4,000 RPM as I could just to try and make it misfire... Used both keys... And nothing happened... Checked the Torque App numerous times, with both keys in the ignition, just to make sure there were no codes still "lingering" in the ECU... And every time, there were none... The only data point I can't capture for now, is taking this NEW engine all the way to 7,500 RPM just to see what happens when I hit the Rev Limiter...

But speaking of Rev Limiters, wouldn't these unexplained Misfires also occur at the Limit set by the Launch Control ??? Does the engine do anything different at 7,500 RPM versus 3,000 PRM if that is where the LC has been set by the user ??? I don't know, just throwing that tid-bit out there for people to chew on...

And please don't construe that I am an "EXPERT" or just trying to get "MY POINT ACROSS" to everyone else who is having these same issues... I'm simply trying to post up what worked for me and my particular situation... Just like I posted about what happened 3 weeks ago out at the Track... However, I do wish I had a more detailed explanation as to why I was having these misfires in the first place ???

 

[2012YellowBoss]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

And please don't construe that I am an "EXPERT" or just trying to get "MY POINT ACROSS"

Never crossed my mind, like you I am passing on my experiences. I have learned a lot here and I also don't claim to be an expert.

Now in today's engines all of those functions are handled by electronic sensors that measure relative position, movement, etc. So my assumption was that all of the sensors in my 2012 BOSS 302 engine just needed to be "reset" so that the original PCM/ECU could know what to do to keep the engine running smoothly all the way from 0 to 7,500 RPM... And FWIW, the Eng Tech said he talked to someone at Ford Racing while going thru the process this morning just to verify what he was doing was correct... And the only thing he was told to do different than what the computer software was saying was to make sure and rev the engine all the way to 6,000 RPM instead of the stated 4,350 (which was also approx where the engine would routinely throw the P0300/P0304 codes)...

What I am getting here is all they did was the standard relearn process for the Trackey programming. I have had this done several times and the last couple of times it was done with the same 6000 RPM thing as per FR. From what you telling us I don't see anything else being reset or whatever we want to call it. What is happening to your car does not make sense for two reasons, one the codes were going off using the silver key as you said and then the re-learn was preformed and it has stopped the codes even with the silver key. The Trackey program only works when you use the red key so it is a mystery to me why it stopped the issue with the non-track key?

Second, if you replace or even clean any sensor the car's computer will pick that up and correct for it. For example cleaning the MAS sensor will send different airflow reading then when the wire was dirty from extended use. The car will then adjust for this change, no need to hook it up and make changes via an external computer. The way I understand it this should have happened with your car, plus it is not like your engine had 60,000 miles on it so the new sensors should not have been much different (dirtier-cleaner). Every Car that comes down the factory line does not get every sensor personally tweaked.

But speaking of Rev Limiters, wouldn't these unexplained Misfires also occur at the Limit set by the Launch Control ??? Does the engine do anything different at 7,500 RPM versus 3,000 PRM if that is where the LC has been set by the user ??? I don't know, just throwing that tid-bit out there for people to chew on...

I have never asked that exact question to people in the know but from what I was told about what was happening with the rev limiter the answer should be Yes.

 

[ChuckP]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

I've only gotten codes thrown either on the track or driving home AFTER a track weekend. Usually P0300 and sometimes P0420. The Aeroforce Interceptor gauge comes in handy as it makes it trivial to read and reset the codes. I've been driving around now for weeks with the Trackey trying to see if I get a CEL but nothing yet. Only get codes during or right after a track event. Guess the Boss does not like to be on the track in spite of what Ford says...lol! The next time I get a CEL I won't reset it and I'll bring it to the dealer that way.

 

[KBBOSS1086]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

I've only gotten codes thrown either on the track or driving home AFTER a track weekend. Usually P0300 and sometimes P0420. The Aeroforce Interceptor gauge comes in handy as it makes it trivial to read and reset the codes. I've been driving around now for weeks with the Trackey trying to see if I get a CEL but nothing yet. Only get codes during or right after a track event. Guess the Boss does not like to be on the track in spite of what Ford says...lol! The next time I get a CEL I won't reset it and I'll bring it to the dealer that way.

Sorry for stating the obvious but it seems like most of the misfire codes are we are all expreincing are specifically related to running the car hard at track events (other than the motor swap discussed earlier). Unfortunately, as I and others have found, Ford doesn't seem to want to openly acknowledge the problem and/or quickly correct it when it's been identified by so many of us. As Chuck touched on, this is dissapointing given the car is promoted as race car you can drive on the street when there have been so many issues experienced by those of us who use our cars how they were intended. I don't by any means expect for things to run seemlessly all the time under track conditions but a CEL every session is crazy...not to mention dangerous if/when limp mode engages in traffic.

I want to encourage as many people as possible to report their problems when on the track (or otherwise) to Ford Racing and Ford as well as take them to dealer without clearing codes e as often as one can. I know this can be tough but I doubt anything is going to be done unless they start consistently hearing their is a problem. I do wonder somtimes if any of the car magazines or big websites would be interested in hearing of all the problems and difficulties many of us have had getting things fixed...I'm sure Chevy would love to know that the Camaro killer has been having so many issiues on track?

 

[OLOABoss]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Just another point. I have been experiencing limp/rough running with flashing CEL in normal street driving. The last time it did it last Tuesday it didn't throw or leave any codes. Other times it has thrown P0300 0302 0306 0308

Peter

 

[ChuckP]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

Just another point. I have been experiencing limp/rough running with flashing CEL in normal street driving. The last time it did it last Tuesday it didn't throw or leave any codes. Other times it has thrown P0300 0302 0306 0308

Peter

That happened to me once I stopped for gas on the way home from a track event at Summit Point. Really rough, car would barely do 50 MPH but no CEL. Pulled off, turned it off for a few minutes, stared it up and it was fine. Looked for any active or pending codes and there was nothing.

 

[PeteInCT]

Re: CEL - "random misfire" (recurring)

I've seen "check engine" light with no codes at times. The Aeroforce gauge still clears the light when CLEAR DTC is engaged. I've never seen codes except at the track, but I do very limited street driving also and when I do I'm driving it like Grandma. My codes have always been in the P0300 family except for the ones I was getting when they found that my engine wiring harness was faulty (that issue has been closed since the harness was replaced).