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Track Time Videos
- Thread startercloud9
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ArizonaBOSS
Because racecar.
Re: Track Time
I used to use a crappy Vatozone air gauge, compared to my buddy's Moroso gauge, the crap gauge was 8psi high...ugh I used that thing for a year without knowing
Now I have a Moroso one.
smittytx said:
I used to use a crappy Vatozone air gauge, compared to my buddy's Moroso gauge, the crap gauge was 8psi high...ugh I used that thing for a year without knowing
Now I have a Moroso one.
PeteInCT
#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Re: Track Time
Cali - Yes, I would no go above 40 psi. I could not with my original Pirelli PZero Corsa's.
I'm going to take an educated (?) guess here.
1) The non r-rated tires are not fabulously sticky.
2) The sidewall compliancy of the tire is probably not like a high end r-comp tire.
3) I assume you are using the stock 19" wheels (which are quite heavy).
If all 3 above are true then adding them up may result in what you are seeing on the track. I switched to lighter 18" wheels and the Nitto NT-555R-II tire before I really put a lot of laps with getting heavy on the berms with my stock LS setup. If you are not running an LS, I am told that the valving in the shocks may (?) be different also. The spring rates surely are. So in the end what you are seeing may not at all be incorrect for your setup and should be able to be addressed (albeit at a cost - there always is... ;D ). If other guys with your exact same setup are seeing the same results, I personally would start off with the switch to 18" wheels and some good wide rubber. Cloud9 put me in that direction and I can't tell you how much of a difference it makes in the handling of the car. Yesterday at NJMP I had a number of GT3 owners who could not believe how the car takes the berms and rotates on a dime. And I've yet to go the route of a new suspension system that some of our buddies here on the forum have. I can only imagine what those may handle like.
CaliMR said:
Cali - Yes, I would no go above 40 psi. I could not with my original Pirelli PZero Corsa's.
I'm going to take an educated (?) guess here.
1) The non r-rated tires are not fabulously sticky.
2) The sidewall compliancy of the tire is probably not like a high end r-comp tire.
3) I assume you are using the stock 19" wheels (which are quite heavy).
If all 3 above are true then adding them up may result in what you are seeing on the track. I switched to lighter 18" wheels and the Nitto NT-555R-II tire before I really put a lot of laps with getting heavy on the berms with my stock LS setup. If you are not running an LS, I am told that the valving in the shocks may (?) be different also. The spring rates surely are. So in the end what you are seeing may not at all be incorrect for your setup and should be able to be addressed (albeit at a cost - there always is... ;D ). If other guys with your exact same setup are seeing the same results, I personally would start off with the switch to 18" wheels and some good wide rubber. Cloud9 put me in that direction and I can't tell you how much of a difference it makes in the handling of the car. Yesterday at NJMP I had a number of GT3 owners who could not believe how the car takes the berms and rotates on a dime. And I've yet to go the route of a new suspension system that some of our buddies here on the forum have. I can only imagine what those may handle like.
Bill Pemberton
0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
Re: Track Time
I would say alot of your issue is just stock tires. The Corsas are a bit better, but getting rid of some of the issues could be related to the stock rubber -- the car runs a ton different on Hoosiers for example. Did you try going softer in the rear at all ? Thunderhill has a some corners where I would think it might squat better coming out of the corners, but then it has been awhile since I was out there and not sure of the current condition of the surface?
I would say alot of your issue is just stock tires. The Corsas are a bit better, but getting rid of some of the issues could be related to the stock rubber -- the car runs a ton different on Hoosiers for example. Did you try going softer in the rear at all ? Thunderhill has a some corners where I would think it might squat better coming out of the corners, but then it has been awhile since I was out there and not sure of the current condition of the surface?
Re: Track Time
Pete, yes all those things. Also I am used to a lighter car with R888s and Hawk Blues so I am sure I am partially just cooking the tires and brakes because I am not babying them enough. Also the 4 runs were compressed into 4 hours so it didn't have much time to cool between runs. My Evo, even with upgraded pads and fluid, would have issues after a couple hot laps and the street tires it had would only last about 2 turns at max attack lol. Turn 2 would heat them so much I had to drift through 3 at THill, and they would roll over so hard even at 50 psi the sidewalls would scuff. I really need to learn to maintain tires better.
My understanding is the damping is much stiffer on the LS, the lowest setting is about the highest normal Boss setting. The guy who sets up all the local racing motorcycles came for a ride with me at THill and cars are a bit different from bikes, but he thinks 5 is too low at the front and 4 is about right at the back based on tire condition after a few runs. He was very impressed, he used to road race and later was crew chief for other racers in Fox Mustangs back in the day. He was like a school kid he was so excited when I offered him a ride ;D
Unfortunately, the Boss is TTA +7 for NASA and I am trying to keep it TTA. So no A6 or I would be in TTS, R6 or NT01 are ok iirc but would allow just a sway to even out the square setup I am planning on running before I am out of points. I would really like to put on the LS springs/dampers but guys like to send you to impound to check part numbers so I don't think I could get away with it. I'm thinking 18s, not sure which yet, and still trying to figure out pads. Ford and the TA guys said PF, but I have a few buddies running Z06s and similar cars that have nothing good to say about them. My rear discs are already showing some wobble marks (checking? I forgot the term) and the PFs seem to do that pretty bad.
I'll figure it out eventually. I need to put a new tranny in the E30 soon, keeping it since I still want to go wheel to wheel when I get my license, but the Boss and I will be running HPDE 4 starting next event and I figure some TT time will be fun.
Pete, yes all those things. Also I am used to a lighter car with R888s and Hawk Blues so I am sure I am partially just cooking the tires and brakes because I am not babying them enough. Also the 4 runs were compressed into 4 hours so it didn't have much time to cool between runs. My Evo, even with upgraded pads and fluid, would have issues after a couple hot laps and the street tires it had would only last about 2 turns at max attack lol. Turn 2 would heat them so much I had to drift through 3 at THill, and they would roll over so hard even at 50 psi the sidewalls would scuff. I really need to learn to maintain tires better.
My understanding is the damping is much stiffer on the LS, the lowest setting is about the highest normal Boss setting. The guy who sets up all the local racing motorcycles came for a ride with me at THill and cars are a bit different from bikes, but he thinks 5 is too low at the front and 4 is about right at the back based on tire condition after a few runs. He was very impressed, he used to road race and later was crew chief for other racers in Fox Mustangs back in the day. He was like a school kid he was so excited when I offered him a ride ;D
Unfortunately, the Boss is TTA +7 for NASA and I am trying to keep it TTA. So no A6 or I would be in TTS, R6 or NT01 are ok iirc but would allow just a sway to even out the square setup I am planning on running before I am out of points. I would really like to put on the LS springs/dampers but guys like to send you to impound to check part numbers so I don't think I could get away with it. I'm thinking 18s, not sure which yet, and still trying to figure out pads. Ford and the TA guys said PF, but I have a few buddies running Z06s and similar cars that have nothing good to say about them. My rear discs are already showing some wobble marks (checking? I forgot the term) and the PFs seem to do that pretty bad.
I'll figure it out eventually. I need to put a new tranny in the E30 soon, keeping it since I still want to go wheel to wheel when I get my license, but the Boss and I will be running HPDE 4 starting next event and I figure some TT time will be fun.
PeteInCT
#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Re: Track Time
I'll go on my Pagid bandbox once again (although I am in the minority ;D ). RS-14 compound up front and their new NASCAR compound RS-56 in the rears. I promise you won't be sorry. Great stopping power, no fade whatsoever and good to your rotors.
I'll go on my Pagid bandbox once again (although I am in the minority ;D ). RS-14 compound up front and their new NASCAR compound RS-56 in the rears. I promise you won't be sorry. Great stopping power, no fade whatsoever and good to your rotors.
PeteInCT
#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Re: Track Time
The RS-14's aren't bad after you get them burn't in with one event, before that they are a little cranky but not terrible. All Pagid pads must be bedded in correctly. If you are going to use the pads on the street also and you are looking for little to no squeal I'd suggest the RS-29 compound for the fronts. You give up a little bite at the track but they are still very good. This is the pad that Audi uses on their cars at 24 hrs Le Mans (really - this is fact - at least they did in 2011 when they won. Not that they didn't win again this year). I used the RS-29 for all of last season with my Audi TTS and for 4 events this season with my LS. I was very happy with them. I went to the RS-14 because I only use the LS on the track and was willing to give up a little rotor life for even more bite in the braking.
The RS-14's aren't bad after you get them burn't in with one event, before that they are a little cranky but not terrible. All Pagid pads must be bedded in correctly. If you are going to use the pads on the street also and you are looking for little to no squeal I'd suggest the RS-29 compound for the fronts. You give up a little bite at the track but they are still very good. This is the pad that Audi uses on their cars at 24 hrs Le Mans (really - this is fact - at least they did in 2011 when they won. Not that they didn't win again this year). I used the RS-29 for all of last season with my Audi TTS and for 4 events this season with my LS. I was very happy with them. I went to the RS-14 because I only use the LS on the track and was willing to give up a little rotor life for even more bite in the braking.
- Thread starter
- #350
cloud9
Gary
Re: Track Time
You have a leaking caliper??CaliMR said:
Re: Track Time
Yeah, my passenger side Brembo's outboard bleeder is leaking. It was so tight from the factory that I thought it was seized when I tried to take it off for a Dot 4 swap, put it on as tight as I dared (I stripped one once on a truck, so I only go so tight now). It had probably 4 drops worth of fluid dripping down by the time I got it home, but I didn't want to mess with it at the track in case the heat seized it while tightening it. Coincidentally my Evo's passenger front Brembo leaked a little too, but only after 20 or so bleeds and was out of warranty. Minor drips are not a serious issue, but since it is so new and likely was like that from the factory I think they should fix it. There was also air in the lines from the factory, I have done probably 10 flushes and 40 bleeds on other cars and it isn't that I did the noobie over loosen thing, there was air in there for sure. I think that was part of the reason my clutch went soft at THill too, it has been solid since I bled the clutch.
Yeah, my passenger side Brembo's outboard bleeder is leaking. It was so tight from the factory that I thought it was seized when I tried to take it off for a Dot 4 swap, put it on as tight as I dared (I stripped one once on a truck, so I only go so tight now). It had probably 4 drops worth of fluid dripping down by the time I got it home, but I didn't want to mess with it at the track in case the heat seized it while tightening it. Coincidentally my Evo's passenger front Brembo leaked a little too, but only after 20 or so bleeds and was out of warranty. Minor drips are not a serious issue, but since it is so new and likely was like that from the factory I think they should fix it. There was also air in the lines from the factory, I have done probably 10 flushes and 40 bleeds on other cars and it isn't that I did the noobie over loosen thing, there was air in there for sure. I think that was part of the reason my clutch went soft at THill too, it has been solid since I bled the clutch.
Re: Track Time
On a lighter note, I think I mentioned my GF used the Boss for the Hyperdrive since it was her first track day. She is a drag racer (and Chevy girl), likes it so much she works for NHRA safety crew, and I have been trying to convince her for years that a road course is like 12+ drag strips all attached to each other at the corners ;D
She came back from it an expert, and started harshing on my lines and my gear selection. My group didn't run until after 1PM so she got to drive it before the heat got to the brakes, and didn't seem to understand why I couldn't brake properly. Lucky me, her coach was a Miata guy and had her convinced cars make no power below 6k rpm so she kept telling me to go to 2nd for the hairpin. 3rd is like 3500 rpm and there is a bit of power, and in 2nd you have to shift while still leaned over. I explained it to her several times and she didn't get it. I even had my buddy, who has several local track records, try to explain it to her but she didn't believe him either. I think I made her angry when I told her that the reason she got away with 2nd without a corner shift was that she was going slower than me. Note to self, don't do that again.
Now she is trying to get me to build another spec car for her : I told her we can take turns with the E30 because she will take a while to catch up to my run group, but she is convinced she is a prodigy and will be there soon.
On a lighter note, I think I mentioned my GF used the Boss for the Hyperdrive since it was her first track day. She is a drag racer (and Chevy girl), likes it so much she works for NHRA safety crew, and I have been trying to convince her for years that a road course is like 12+ drag strips all attached to each other at the corners ;D
She came back from it an expert, and started harshing on my lines and my gear selection. My group didn't run until after 1PM so she got to drive it before the heat got to the brakes, and didn't seem to understand why I couldn't brake properly. Lucky me, her coach was a Miata guy and had her convinced cars make no power below 6k rpm so she kept telling me to go to 2nd for the hairpin. 3rd is like 3500 rpm and there is a bit of power, and in 2nd you have to shift while still leaned over. I explained it to her several times and she didn't get it. I even had my buddy, who has several local track records, try to explain it to her but she didn't believe him either. I think I made her angry when I told her that the reason she got away with 2nd without a corner shift was that she was going slower than me. Note to self, don't do that again.
Now she is trying to get me to build another spec car for her :
I told her we can take turns with the E30 because she will take a while to catch up to my run group, but she is convinced she is a prodigy and will be there soon.
VoodooBoss
Rick
Re: Track Time
Cali so you don't use second gear at Sonoma? Just third and fourth?
Cali so you don't use second gear at Sonoma? Just third and fourth?
Re: Track Time
In this car, no I didn't use 2nd unless I over braked somewhere. I don't use 2nd in the E30 either, I used to use it in the hairpin but my friend with the records told me that lugging a bit is better than a shift in the acceleration zone. I keep forgetting it is Sonoma raceway now.
I also don't use second at all at THill, not even in 10 or in 11, again because my friend told me not to. I have ridden with him a few times, and it is unreal the speed he can get out of cars. He took my stock Evo on street tires out in the TT group for giggles once and we were blowing by the TTA cars to the point that after the session a couple of them came over and yelled at him. It was pretty funny.
I also run race lines all the time, unless I am practicing off-line post pass turns. Like on the carousel, I take it 1/3 from left instead of 1/3 from right. Again because I try to use his lines. I could not run them in the Boss at Sonoma because the brakes were bad enough I was just letting people pass me in the braking zones.
Of course, I only just got into Group 4 so I am still an amateur in the big picture, but I trust my friend's advice more than the group instructors especially the ones who have never raced. That was part of the reason I was stuck in G3 so long, they thought I had horrible lines until I explained what I was doing.
Once I get the brakes sorted out, I'm going to let him take me for a ride in the Boss and figure out the lines for me ;D He wanted to this time but I told him not until it is set up right.
In this car, no I didn't use 2nd unless I over braked somewhere. I don't use 2nd in the E30 either, I used to use it in the hairpin but my friend with the records told me that lugging a bit is better than a shift in the acceleration zone. I keep forgetting it is Sonoma raceway now.
I also don't use second at all at THill, not even in 10 or in 11, again because my friend told me not to. I have ridden with him a few times, and it is unreal the speed he can get out of cars. He took my stock Evo on street tires out in the TT group for giggles once and we were blowing by the TTA cars to the point that after the session a couple of them came over and yelled at him. It was pretty funny.
I also run race lines all the time, unless I am practicing off-line post pass turns. Like on the carousel, I take it 1/3 from left instead of 1/3 from right. Again because I try to use his lines. I could not run them in the Boss at Sonoma because the brakes were bad enough I was just letting people pass me in the braking zones.
Of course, I only just got into Group 4 so I am still an amateur in the big picture, but I trust my friend's advice more than the group instructors especially the ones who have never raced. That was part of the reason I was stuck in G3 so long, they thought I had horrible lines until I explained what I was doing.
Once I get the brakes sorted out, I'm going to let him take me for a ride in the Boss and figure out the lines for me ;D He wanted to this time but I told him not until it is set up right.
VoodooBoss
Rick
Re: Track Time
Thanks. So the only time I'll use second at LS, TH or Sonoma is turn 11 at LS. That was a problem for me as I was getting lockout shifting into third on the front straight. Very annoying when you have a GTR on your bumper. :-[
Thanks. So the only time I'll use second at LS, TH or Sonoma is turn 11 at LS. That was a problem for me as I was getting lockout shifting into third on the front straight. Very annoying when you have a GTR on your bumper. :-[
Re: Track Time
It isn't gospel, a lot of it is car dependent and even then not everyone agrees. Many of the spec guys I know do use 2nd... but none of them have track records. Personally my impression with the Boss is that it makes plenty of steam at 3500 rpm as compared to time lost shifting (I'm on the stock shifter and never power shift) especially with lock outs. I dropped down to 3k a few times by mis-judging the braking and I still had enough power to get it back up to 3500 by the time I was in a position to accelerate. I'll know more once I have the car sorted, and if I get any special insights when my buddy drives it I will let you know. The power band on this car is amazing for an NA car, my Evo was full blast 4k-6.5k and had good power from 3k (though took a sec to spool at that rpm) through 7200 fuel cut but not like this car. Riding the torque seems to be better than lots of shifts from my seat-o-the-pants-meter. I really only ever had the throttle all the way open on the main straight and going into 7, I was limited by traction everywhere else, so I am not that concerned with perfect gear selection at Sonoma, at least not at my skill and setup level.
Do you have any sort of data acquisition? I don't, and I have an old Blackberry so can't use the ones for the Iphone, but if you do you can try it both ways and see.
It isn't gospel, a lot of it is car dependent and even then not everyone agrees. Many of the spec guys I know do use 2nd... but none of them have track records. Personally my impression with the Boss is that it makes plenty of steam at 3500 rpm as compared to time lost shifting (I'm on the stock shifter and never power shift) especially with lock outs. I dropped down to 3k a few times by mis-judging the braking and I still had enough power to get it back up to 3500 by the time I was in a position to accelerate. I'll know more once I have the car sorted, and if I get any special insights when my buddy drives it I will let you know. The power band on this car is amazing for an NA car, my Evo was full blast 4k-6.5k and had good power from 3k (though took a sec to spool at that rpm) through 7200 fuel cut but not like this car. Riding the torque seems to be better than lots of shifts from my seat-o-the-pants-meter. I really only ever had the throttle all the way open on the main straight and going into 7, I was limited by traction everywhere else, so I am not that concerned with perfect gear selection at Sonoma, at least not at my skill and setup level.
Do you have any sort of data acquisition? I don't, and I have an old Blackberry so can't use the ones for the Iphone, but if you do you can try it both ways and see.
Re: Track Time
Cali-
That is a funny story about your girlfriend... cool that she likes to drive though.
I hear you on maintaining a gear selection that avoids a shift as you exit a corner, that unsettles the balance of the car it seems. These motors have so much flexibility that you can ride along between 3500-7500 all day long and they never seem to lack the torque to pull out of corners. Ford seemed to design the power curve specifically for this, especially since this is the powerband that the TK is designed to enhance the overall curve in.
Regarding brake pads, I took Pete's advice and my Pagid RS29's came in Tuesday of this week. I haven't had time to put them in yet though. Once I do, and get them burned in, I will offer some insight. I'm sure everything Pete has said will turn out to be 100% spot on though. Next HPDE for my car is July 16th again at Lime Rock. Looking forward to seeing how the pads improve my experience as well as the removal of the clutch pedal spring. There were a few times I couldn't get it into 5th gear on the main straight at that track and I felt foolish in front of my instructor, lol.
Cali-
That is a funny story about your girlfriend... cool that she likes to drive though.
I hear you on maintaining a gear selection that avoids a shift as you exit a corner, that unsettles the balance of the car it seems. These motors have so much flexibility that you can ride along between 3500-7500 all day long and they never seem to lack the torque to pull out of corners. Ford seemed to design the power curve specifically for this, especially since this is the powerband that the TK is designed to enhance the overall curve in.
Regarding brake pads, I took Pete's advice and my Pagid RS29's came in Tuesday of this week. I haven't had time to put them in yet though. Once I do, and get them burned in, I will offer some insight. I'm sure everything Pete has said will turn out to be 100% spot on though. Next HPDE for my car is July 16th again at Lime Rock. Looking forward to seeing how the pads improve my experience as well as the removal of the clutch pedal spring. There were a few times I couldn't get it into 5th gear on the main straight at that track and I felt foolish in front of my instructor, lol.
PeteInCT
#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Re: Track Time
I'm sure everything Pete has said will turn out to be 100% spot on though.
Obviously, you have not met my wife. ;D
SVT1 said:
I'm sure everything Pete has said will turn out to be 100% spot on though.
Obviously, you have not met my wife. ;D
PeteInCT
#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Re: Track Time
And I know less than everyone else at the track !
And I know less than everyone else at the track !
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