Watts Link

[Compton93]

Well after 3 months of waiting on shipping BMR has discontinued their Watts Link. What does everyone recomend for a Watts Link setup?

 

[blacksheep-1]

Ford Performance lower trailing arms and panhard bar, and a stock GT500 upper link with Ford Performance springs an 18 MM, or no sway bar and cash in your pocket.

 

[Mike_FL]

Cortex

 

[TMSBOSS]

Cortex

 

[Dave_W]

Depends on if you want the "propeller" pivot attached to the axle or the body. Axle-pivot are made by Cortex and Whiteline. Body-pivot are made by Fays and Steeda. I haven't compared them in a while, but look for stressed parts being mounted in double shear as much as possible.

 

[blacksheep-1]

FWIW if someone is forcing you to use a watts or they will shoot your dog or something, Cortex is the way to go. They seem to like those at Kohr, and I know Rickey who owns the place.

 

[xr7]

I have the Whiteline on mine. The "propeller" failed on mine this year. This was the fifth season of autocross on it. A weld broke on one of the pivots that the links attach to, the other pivot also has the welds failing. The new part is no better. Going to rebuild the one that failed with a slight design change to get a better weld on it.
I would look at the Cortex, easy to add the torque arm if you want to try that.

 

[67GTA]

I have the Whiteline on mine. The "propeller" failed on mine this year. This was the fifth season of autocross on it. A weld broke on one of the pivots that the links attach to, the other pivot also has the welds failing. The new part is no better. Going to rebuild the one that failed with a slight design change to get a better weld on it.
I would look at the Cortex, easy to add the torque arm if you want to try that.View attachment 80186

Whiteline has stopped selling theirs and I’m assuming this is why. I know I’m on borrowed time with mine - Cortex will be going on before too long.

 

[Wingrider]

Another vote for Cortex- as seen in my profile pic...

 

[Vettel-ish]

Cortex

 

[Tri-bar]

Another for Cortex, If you just got to have one.

 

[captdistraction]

I just went to the cortex from BMR. The BMR is a great part, I won 2 championships on it - a shame they're discontinuing it (and most anything road racers use). The move to a cortex one was an easy choice, and the transition was pretty easy from a driving perspective - despite the RC couple being different from the chassis to the diff cover - they don't really drive all that differently.

That said, I am selling a BMR watts link, its just partially welded to a race-prepped rear axle assembly with a torsen T2 and other goodies - its in the marketplace

 

[navseng]

I have the Whiteline on mine. The "propeller" failed on mine this year. This was the fifth season of autocross on it. A weld broke on one of the pivots that the links attach to, the other pivot also has the welds failing. The new part is no better. Going to rebuild the one that failed with a slight design change to get a better weld on it.
I would look at the Cortex, easy to add the torque arm if you want to try that.View attachment 80186

single shear , yikes.

 

[xr7]

single shear , yikes.

I did look at the idea of modifying it to a double shear design but I'm going to rebuild the prop first with a minor redesign for attaching the link lugs to the prop. While single shear is not ideal the main issue with failure is a poorly designed part that has nearly no room for a decent weld and then most of the weld is ground off. I'm confident with a minor change it will be fine to hold the back end in check.
The lug that pulled off is drilled all the way thru and tapped all the way thru, doesn't need to be, bolt doesn't need to be very long to retain the link. There was no bevel on the backside of the whole to get deeper penetration into the prop. The other thing I will check is the clearance on the backside, may be able to extend the lug a bit to get a better weld so the load is spread over a larger area. I think they were relying on a tight fit between the lug and the prop and the should on the lug. There is next to nothing for a weld on the backside after the weld was ground flush and there isn't a lot of material left in the lug after the hole has been drilled thru and tapped. Time to get the lathe out and whip up a fix.
Luckily the 295/40-18's kept the axle in place, some what, the fender lines were the only casualties. Did you know that smoked fender liners smells almost like axle grease burning on hot brakes?

 

[navseng]

I did look at the idea of modifying it to a double shear design but I'm going to rebuild the prop first with a minor redesign for attaching the link lugs to the prop. While single shear is not ideal the main issue with failure is a poorly designed part that has nearly no room for a decent weld and then most of the weld is ground off. I'm confident with a minor change it will be fine to hold the back end in check.
The lug that pulled off is drilled all the way thru and tapped all the way thru, doesn't need to be, bolt doesn't need to be very long to retain the link. There was no bevel on the backside of the whole to get deeper penetration into the prop. The other thing I will check is the clearance on the backside, may be able to extend the lug a bit to get a better weld so the load is spread over a larger area. I think they were relying on a tight fit between the lug and the prop and the should on the lug. There is next to nothing for a weld on the backside after the weld was ground flush and there isn't a lot of material left in the lug after the hole has been drilled thru and tapped. Time to get the lathe out and whip up a fix.
Luckily the 295/40-18's kept the axle in place, some what, the fender lines were the only casualties. Did you know that smoked fender liners smells almost like axle grease burning on hot brakes?

That "sleeve" piece, if that was machined as one unit with a nice size flange that could be welded from the backside, that would be ideal. Is clearance an issue on the backside of the pivot?

 

[xr7]

That "sleeve" piece, if that was machined as one unit with a nice size flange that could be welded from the backside, that would be ideal. Is clearance an issue on the backside of the pivot?

The clearance on the backside is an issue but I have to do some measuring to see how much there is, there may be enough to get some additional material support. I have an idea also to go to a double shear setup using rod ends vs the bushed ends on the propeller. Then I'm looking at putting the prop pivot into a double shear also. There just isn't much room back there. Other thought is that Kenny Brown thing but that may interfere with my sway bar. You sure can burn thru some cash with these toys.

 

[Dave_W]

The other, quite a bit more pricey, option is the Kenny Brown K-Link, which is a Mumford Link design. With both the Panhard and Watts, you can't get the roll center below the attachment points. With a Mumford, you can get the roll center to be at ground level if you want.

Kenny Brown AGS 4.5: Have I Been Living Under A rock Or Is This Brand New?

As the thread title reads.....Either KB needs a better marketing group, or this just recently came out. Know anybody who's running it? Hard to justify 2x the price compared to cortex TQ arm and watts, but it is interesting. Haven't had an opportunity to really dive into the tech of it...

trackmustangsonline.com

 

[blacksheep-1]

This is one of the issues with a watts, for cars that are as heavy as ours, and then add curb jumping, the roughness of tracks and the dynamic loading, you are really asking a lot out of the diff cover and that center bolt arrangement, I'm not sure that is something that can be overcome, it's almost as if you fix one area, then you break the next piece in line. This is one of the reasons these things have never really caught on in competition cars.

 

[xr7]

This is one of the issues with a watts, for cars that are as heavy as ours, and then add curb jumping, the roughness of tracks and the dynamic loading, you are really asking a lot out of the diff cover and that center bolt arrangement, I'm not sure that is something that can be overcome, it's almost as if you fix one area, then you break the next piece in line. This is one of the reasons these things have never really caught on in competition cars.

That is one of my concerns with this setup, I have been checking the center pivot bolt to make sure it isn't bent or loose. This failure looks to me like a bad design that someone should have caught.

 

[blacksheep-1]

From Billy Johnsons article on TMO.

, most arguments against PHBs use irrelevant diagrams with short bars at steep angles to justify the ‘extreme’ lateral axle movement claims. In reality, there is less than 0.1” of lateral travel in most cases and less than 0.2” over the entire 4” of vertical suspension travel. This is insignificant when compared to the amount of flex that wheels and especially tires see when cornering.

In regards to the PHB’s asymmetric handling argument, this problem is easily overcome by adjusting the car’s static cross-weight. If the car has suspension with adjustable ride height (like coilovers), placing a few tenths of a percent more static weight on the left front & right rear tires will easily offset and balance out the PHB’s inherent asymmetry of understeer in left-handers and oversteer in right-handers.