Advice on setup for street and track!

[mwjscn]

What pad compounds do the competition Dark Horse cars run?

would be interested in pad compound

See attached. Doc says it's RB-340.

 

[Gunslinger55]

Takeaway here stock pads 15 mm i’m at 9mm so 1100 miles and 16 track sessions these only wore 6mm. Pretty good

I'd say so. Still more than 50%

Going for 8 more this weekend and i’ll remeasure

 

[Junkyard Dog]

See attached. Doc says it's RB-340.

So this meant nothing to me. AI says:


Comparison with Related Compounds

Compound	Primary Characteristic	Best Use Case
RB170	High bite, high wear	Stable torque for various axles
RB330	Mid-range bite, low wear	Rear axle GT/Rally
RB340	Balanced bite & modulation	GT Endurance & versatile racing
RB350	Aggressive bite, higher friction	Sprint races & maximum power

 

[mwjscn]

So this meant nothing to me.

That's crazy, I thought page 4 was very concise on both a technical front (friction versus temp) and a layman front with the text descriptions outlining the characteristics, plus the further description comparing RB-340 and 350 from Brembo on the second doc. The AI summary matches what the second doc from Brembo says, so I don't know what extra you garnered from that.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

That's crazy, I thought page 4 was very concise on both a technical front (friction versus temp) and a layman front with the text descriptions outlining the characteristics, plus the further description comparing RB-340 and 350 from Brembo on the second doc. The AI summary matches what the second doc from Brembo says, so I don't know what extra you garnered from that.

LOL, you assume I got to page 4!

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Now I will go check it out, thanks.

 

[mwjscn]

Don't let AI rot your attention span and ruin your critical reading skills! Otherwise when it lies to you, you won't have the faculties left to figure out the difference.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Going back and looking, I did see page 4. I did not open the second document.

What I posted from the AI response was the information placing the various Brembo brake pad compound numbers in a chart for comparison purposes so you could see where RB340 landed in their available product line up. Having now gone back and re-read page 4, I see that what I posted is mostly new and additional information to what appeared on page 4, which complements what you provided. I like to see all of the pads in the line up and how they compare.

I am about the furthest away from AI rotted attention span and ruined critical reading skills of any person you will ever encounter.

"This" in this meant nothing to me was a reference to RB340, not the document you linked. I had never seen that particular combination of letters and numbers, nor had I seen any of their pad offerings before today.

 

[mwjscn]

I am about the furthest away from AI rotted attention span and ruined critical reading skills of any person you will ever encounter.

LOL, you assume I got to page 4!

More of a general comment in terms of AI usage when researching and not something personal. It's irritating when the information is provided from primary sources and someone jumps over to AI. It can be a helpful tool, when applied in the right way, and when the user is willing to engage with the resources it uses as sources to double check. At least that's how it is today.

The docs were provided for TeeLew and Gunslinger just to answer their curiosity. Since we're chatting about a Motorsports-only braking system in a thread about a Dual Duty Street/Track setup, it's best to return this to the OP at this point.

 

[Gunslinger55]

Yeah a bit off topic but one of my points that whatever ford is using on stock dark horse HP is pretty good brake pad wise

carry on

 

[Junkyard Dog]

The stock dark horse pads whatever they are seem to work pretty good and last a pretty good time on track. I bought Glocs to install when they finally go and interested to see what happens. 16 front 12 rear which was recommended by a sponsor and are pretty aggressive. Probably be happy with another set of stock pads actually as they don’t make noise or produce much dust and wear good. But pretty happy with GLoc on my “street” mustang and lots of guys use them that i know and will be interested to see how they compare (the 16/12)

What exactly are the “stock” DH pads? I ever to a dealer to see if they had any in stock snd he asked me for a vin. I said aren’t they all the same??? Interesting. Ferraro 2500 f/r?

Takeaway here stock pads 15 mm i’m at 9mm so 1100 miles and 16 track sessions these only wore 6mm. Pretty good for a factory setup

I don't suppose you got a look at the back of the pads to see if they are Ferodo 2500?

That is what somebody contended over on the 7GMustang forum.

OEM Brake Pads

Anyone know what the OEM brake pads are on the Dark Horse? Haven't been able to find out anything online. Ferodos?

www.mustang7g.com

(This is on topic, as the OP is running Ferodo DS2500 pads now)

 

[Gunslinger55]

I don't suppose you got a look at the back of the pads to see if they are Ferodo 2500?

That is what somebody contended over on the 7GMustang forum.

OEM Brake Pads

Anyone know what the OEM brake pads are on the Dark Horse? Haven't been able to find out anything online. Ferodos?

www.mustang7g.com

(This is on topic, as the OP is running Ferodo DS2500 pads now)

I haven’t taken them out yet just measured

 

[Rodpwnz]

More of a general comment in terms of AI usage when researching and not something personal. It's irritating when the information is provided from primary sources and someone jumps over to AI. It can be a helpful tool, when applied in the right way, and when the user is willing to engage with the resources it uses as sources to double check. At least that's how it is today.

The docs were provided for TeeLew and Gunslinger just to answer their curiosity. Since we're chatting about a Motorsports-only braking system in a thread about a Dual Duty Street/Track setup, it's best to return this to the OP at this point.

I appreciate the focus, but if I may add one more interesting experience before moving on from motorsports only brake pads - check out this big boy on an M4 GT3 car:


During the GT world challenge at Sonoma, team Dollahite was the only one running the mustang GT3 EVO. They said they were running PAGID brake pads(sponsored).


OK back to the thread - thank you guys for all the advice. I'm now going to try 70/30 water coolant ratio with water wetter and hood louvers to see how much more cooling I can extract before deciding on going upgraded oil cooler. This seems like the smarter first step since I will be using the same coolant ratio and louvers with an oil cooler anyways.

Also, a forum member was kind enough to give me free lightly used DBA rear rotors and OEM pads, so that is shipped and on its way now. I believe all I need now are spacers and lugs, which I already ordered from Apex.

Another thing... what are your thoughts on 19x11 ET50 SVE SP2 Flow formed wheels vs 19x11 ET52 Apex forged SM10-RS or flow formed VS-5? Price delta between SP2 and SM10-RS is $1600, and $600 to VS-5. I have the 19x11 SP2 sealed in box in my garage, can return for $170 shipping fee. I also have an SM10-RS on backorder with 90+ day ETA, can cancel whenever. I need to make a decision by end of this week.

I am leaning 19x11 SP2 since I already have them, they are great value and I love the way they look(I have an identical 19x10 set on the car now).

 

[blacksheep-1]

I appreciate the focus, but if I may add one more interesting experience before moving on from motorsports only brake pads - check out this big boy on an M4 GT3 car:
View attachment 109722

During the GT world challenge at Sonoma, team Dollahite was the only one running the mustang GT3 EVO. They said they were running PAGID brake pads(sponsored).


OK back to the thread - thank you guys for all the advice. I'm now going to try 70/30 water coolant ratio with water wetter and hood louvers to see how much more cooling I can extract before deciding on going upgraded oil cooler. This seems like the smarter first step since I will be using the same coolant ratio and louvers with an oil cooler anyways.

Also, a forum member was kind enough to give me free lightly used DBA rear rotors and OEM pads, so that is shipped and on its way now. I believe all I need now are spacers and lugs, which I already ordered from Apex.

Another thing... what are your thoughts on 19x11 ET50 SVE SP2 Flow formed wheels vs 19x11 ET52 Apex forged SM10-RS or flow formed VS-5? Price delta between SP2 and SM10-RS is $1600, and $600 to VS-5. I have the 19x11 SP2 sealed in box in my garage, can return for $170 shipping fee. I also have an SM10-RS on backorder with 90+ day ETA, can cancel whenever. I need to make a decision by end of this week.

I am leaning 19x11 SP2 since I already have them, they are great value and I love the way they look(I have an identical 19x10 set on the car now).

So to go back a year or two, when the whole darkhorse race series was being created a lot of us told them to go with race grade brakes, a better cooling system andv18inch wheels, of course all that was ignored and it caused so many problems that we are now forced to run race brakes, a better cooling system and 18 inch wheels. FWIW just because a car runs 18 inch wheels doesn't mean they are running a smaller brake. Darkhorse is so controlled even the brake fluid is spec, so that means you have to run a specific pad, even though a better one might be available, since apparently Hawk is not making them for your application, I would check with Padget, the Padgets are what we are running in Gt4 with good results. With regards to your choice of wheels, there are cast..heavy and what darkhouse had to run at the time, they are easily bent and, not really repairable and weaker. Then you have " flow formed, squeeze cast, spun form or whatever other stuff wheel mfgers come up with but not really competition oriented, then you have forged wheels which most competition teams use, they can actually be rebuilt in many cases if they are damaged. The weapon of choice there is Forgeline, it used to be CCW but after John the Wheel Man sold the company they went to crap..You can use cast, spun or forged wheels but you need to inspect them often as the low cost wheels will need replacing before the expensive ones will.

 

[TeeLew]

Pagid, but yes. Honestly, I think I'd run the stock rear until fade is a genuine issue. The rear is probably bigger than they need to be. The rear pad you just want be low-friction/low-bite/flat mu. The front can get a little more spicy. You really don't need all that high of a friction level because the brakes are over-boosted. You just want to make sure they can deal with high temps.

If I'm going to put a number on it, I'd guess you don't want more than about a 0.4 mu pad compound. That's kind of middle-of-the-road on friction level. It doesn't need to have a big 'bite.' If you wanted to run Pagid, then that would probably be something like a RSL29.

The difference between a 'street' pad and a 'race' pad is not that big of a deal. There are laws which say the friction of a brake pad must be below some certain friction level, like 0.32 or something like that. So street pads kinda have to suck. Race pads stop the car fine when they're cold, they just might be a little noisy sometimes.

I run EBC blues on the front of my car all the time. It's a fine street pad, but it's not DoT legal. They can be a little noisy just as I'm coming to a stop sometimes. They have pretty good stopping power for the street and they're cheapish. Other manufacturers are better.

 

[bnight]

Pagid, but yes. Honestly, I think I'd run the stock rear until fade is a genuine issue. The rear is probably bigger than they need to be. The rear pad you just want be low-friction/low-bite/flat mu. The front can get a little more spicy. You really don't need all that high of a friction level because the brakes are over-boosted. You just want to make sure they can deal with high temps.

When you have the brakes booster working though ! My next update will be spicy when I get the car back to the track but after installing the new brakes booster there is a night and day difference in how the brakes bite !

If I'm going to put a number on it, I'd guess you don't want more than about a 0.4 mu pad compound. That's kind of middle-of-the-road on friction level. It doesn't need to have a big 'bite.' If you wanted to run Pagid, then that would probably be something like a RSL29.

The RSL29 last time I checked is around 0.45 Mu and about perfect for an endurance track day pad. No ABS Ice Mode no big temperatures. It's counter intuitive but in S550 you want as low mu as you can get away with because of the stupid ABS.

 

[Rodpwnz]

Chart below is from Ferodo website for pad friction to temp relationship:


Here is Pagid RSL29 chart:


No chart from EBC but according to their website they have two version of the Blue stuff pads.
1. Regular blue stuff @ .42 Mu
2. Blue stuff NDX @ .52 Mu

I'm thinking DS2500, RSL29 or regular blue stuff would be great to run in the rears for many mustang track drivers who are novice to advanced level, but not competing.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

There are laws which say the friction of a brake pad must be below some certain friction level, like 0.32 or something like that. So street pads kinda have to suck. Race pads stop the car fine when they're cold, they just might be a little noisy sometimes.

I don't know about the laws, but the stock brake pads on the Dark Horse have a higher coefficient of friction than that (the purple line on the chart in the post immediately above this one).

 

[bnight]

I don't know about the laws, but the stock brake pads on the Dark Horse have a higher coefficient of friction than that (the purple line on the chart in the post immediately above this one).

That chart is what I used when I selected the OEM PP1 pads for rear (DS2500) and DSUno (Red) for front.

 

[TeeLew]

I don't know about the laws, but the stock brake pads on the Dark Horse have a higher coefficient of friction than that (the purple line on the chart in the post immediately above this one).

Yep, and they really fight rear locking. ABS can only do so much, especially since they all run the torsen, which screws you for braking. There just isn't enough diff lock to keep things happy.

In general, any sort of front-engine GT-ish car wants very little braking on the rear. I haven't tried it, but I suspect the EBC blue (orignal) would be too much for the rear. The DS2500 really drops over about 350*. That's going to be about the temperature on brake application. 1/2 way through the brake zone, they'll be 550-ish. That's kinda the idea of a digressive rear pad. Good initial friction, then have the friction level drop through the zone so you don't have to fight locking on corner entry. A friction coeff. of about 0.30-0.35 is what you're looking for on the rear coupled with something in the 0.45 range on the front. Any of the big friction pads on the front will be a like a light switch, on/off.

You don't need much mu on the front of the car and significantly less on the rear. A higher friction level doesn't increase braking performance, it just makes the ABS come in sooner.

Modulation is a much bigger deal than ultimate friction level.