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ARCHETYPE RACING - VOODOO/COYOTE/PREDATOR Oil Balancing Hoses

53
50
Exp. Type
HPDE
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Under 3 Years
Niceville, Fla.
So I may be mis-understanding something here, hopefully you guys can clear it up. Is this a must have on a Voodoo, or is it a must have on any Coyote/Voodoo/Predator? Is it the sustained high rpm that's the issue or is there something Voodoo specific that makes it a must there and just an insurance policy on the Coyote?
See post #1
 
9
3
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Indiana
See post #1
At the bottom of the page, the first rule is to add value. You've added none.

Oil balancing lines are now on the website.

It's widely known that Voodoo engines have been known to fail from oil aeration on cylinders 4 and 8. The aeration of oil negatively affects lash adjusters, camshafts, and cam phasers. These hoses allow cross head oil flow/pressure and bank balancing. To mitigate this issue, oil balancing lines are installed from the factory on FP350S engines. For us Voodoo, Coyote (Gen 2 verified), and Predator owners, the good thing is, the factory has equipped the heads with 2 pairs of plugged ports on the back of the heads to allow the installation of these oil balancing hoses.
Nothing in these comments says anything about the root cause of the oil aeration in question. So is it an RPM thing? Is it a Voodoo thing? Is it a mod motor thing and we should all do it? I don't see a clear direction here. I'm interested in the product, but I want to better understand the root cause of the issue it is intended to correct. I'm the average guy with just a regular GT, and I'm trying to decide how much of a must-have this is. There are way more Coyote guys out there than there are Voodoo and Predator guys. So a solid discussion around the actual root cause of the aeration and how critical this is to a Coyote will benefit many members.
 
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JDee

Ancient Racer
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20+ Years
halfway between Mosport and Shannonville
At the bottom of the page, the first rule is to add value. You've added none.


Nothing in these comments says anything about the root cause of the oil aeration in question. So is it an RPM thing? Is it a Voodoo thing? Is it a mod motor thing and we should all do it? I don't see a clear direction here. I'm interested in the product, but I want to better understand the root cause of the issue it is intended to correct. I'm the average guy with just a regular GT, and I'm trying to decide how much of a must-have this is. There are way more Coyote guys out there than there are Voodoo and Predator guys. So a solid discussion around the actual root cause of the aeration and how critical this is to a Coyote will benefit many members.
Good questions, though your first line is maybe a bit unnecessarily harsh....

Their verbage says stuff like "running your engine hard" and "high RPM" which is kind of open to interpretation. My situation is possibly representative of most lapping day people in that the car is usually either at WOT or closed throttle, with a bit of transition going up and down. But, it rarely if ever goes above the stock 6750 rpm redline. So is that "high rpm" or "running the engine hard"? I don't know, but since it's below the mfr's redline I have to believe it's being operated within mfr's spec. Makes it a tough sell for people with stock motors being used within spec.

Seems to me the bigger issue for early stock Coyote engines is the poor oil control in the drivers' side valve cover and I'm not sure these lines would help with that. The GT350 valve cover part fix at $350 is not cheap, if these lines addressed that problem they would be a good deal.
 
53
50
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Niceville, Fla.
The heads are milled for this provision. At some point during the Coyote/Roadrunner development program 12 years ago, engineering considered it necessary in some applications. Fast forward to the FP350S powerplant which uses this head feature and oil balancing hoses installed prior to delivery. Different engines and levels of application indeed, but the original design offers application flexibility. Perhaps you should contact a specialist at the Ford Performance Tech line who can answer your questions. Cheers
 
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9
3
Exp. Type
HPDE
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10-20 Years
Indiana
I agree we could surmise that at some point the engineers thought it was important to include balance lines, but it's just an assumption. If the issue is oil aeration in the feed passages that's fine, but I don't see how that's a localized problem that the rest of the engine wouldn't see as well. I also don't see how balancing pressure from head to head would eliminate aeration, but again there is a lot I don't know.

When companies say they have a fix for an issue, it would seem that they have a full understanding of the issue their product addresses, and it would be cool to get more detailed information from Archetype Racing or @EIGHTLUG himself.

It is also possible that there is no technical info to share because Archetype Racing saw the FP350S crate engine had the balance lines and thought "hey that's easy to recreate and sell to morons like 2016GTPP Guy, lets make some money". For which I do not begrudge them one bit, I buy things I don't need all the time. On the other hand, if there is solid evidence that all the DOHC mod motors could reap a reliability benefit from this, it should be displayed/discussed. The end result would be this product exploding in popularity to be one of those must have items like a passenger side catch can. Everyone on this site and half the people over on Mustang6g would be installing them.
 
I agree we could surmise that at some point the engineers thought it was important to include balance lines, but it's just an assumption. If the issue is oil aeration in the feed passages that's fine, but I don't see how that's a localized problem that the rest of the engine wouldn't see as well. I also don't see how balancing pressure from head to head would eliminate aeration, but again there is a lot I don't know.

When companies say they have a fix for an issue, it would seem that they have a full understanding of the issue their product addresses, and it would be cool to get more detailed information from Archetype Racing or @EIGHTLUG himself.

It is also possible that there is no technical info to share because Archetype Racing saw the FP350S crate engine had the balance lines and thought "hey that's easy to recreate and sell to morons like 2016GTPP Guy, lets make some money". For which I do not begrudge them one bit, I buy things I don't need all the time. On the other hand, if there is solid evidence that all the DOHC mod motors could reap a reliability benefit from this, it should be displayed/discussed. The end result would be this product exploding in popularity to be one of those must have items like a passenger side catch can. Everyone on this site and half the people over on Mustang6g would be installing them.

How Ford Performance Hand Builds 5.0 Coyote V8s​


buildup of the FP350s engine. Start at 5min 30sec. Oil balance lines
 
9
3
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Indiana
Well here is what MMR has to say on the issue...


One specific note I found interesting on MMR's website I've quoted below.

"NOTE: While we have seen some copies of the MMR product it should be noted that those kits using 2 hoses to join all of the lifter bores together are 100% unnecessary, they add cost, installation complexity, increased points for failure and leaking, increased weight and redundancy, this is because the lifter bores are already joined at the front of the cylinder head via a machined tunnel in the casting making a second hose completely useless."

Seems like MMR agrees a crossover is needed but they don't adhere to Ford's design with 2 lines. Interesting...
 
Well here is what MMR has to say on the issue...


One specific note I found interesting on MMR's website I've quoted below.

"NOTE: While we have seen some copies of the MMR product it should be noted that those kits using 2 hoses to join all of the lifter bores together are 100% unnecessary, they add cost, installation complexity, increased points for failure and leaking, increased weight and redundancy, this is because the lifter bores are already joined at the front of the cylinder head via a machined tunnel in the casting making a second hose completely useless."

Seems like MMR agrees a crossover is needed but they don't adhere to Ford's design with 2 lines. Interesting...
Nice find. However, I think Ford Performance invests a lot more on the engineering side with degreed engineers. Ford Performance is not into discounting other company‘s products either.
 
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Nice find. However, I think Ford Performance invests a lot more on the engineering side with degreed engineers. Ford Performance is not into discounting other company‘s products either.
To be honest, ford is making their products just to meet a requirement.

@EIGHTLUG constantly over engineers to meet way more than the vehicles will ever see
 
Nice find. However, I think Ford Performance invests a lot more on the engineering side with degreed engineers. Ford Performance is not into discounting other company‘s products either.
Ford — yes, Ford Performance - No!
Thats not FP thats mmr. I wouldnt give mmr a cent if my money. I have seen them screw over customers badly and blame them for their shotty work. There are a lot of articles that also state MMR’S rear head coolant crossovers are a waste of money and do nothing.

if it was unnecessary why is it on their fp350s motor?

your money, but $100 to possibly save a $20k motor? Im in.
 
Thats not FP thats mmr. I wouldnt give mmr a cent if my money. I have seen them screw over customers badly and blame them for their shotty work. There are a lot of articles that also state MMR’S rear head coolant crossovers are a waste of money and do nothing.

if it was unnecessary why is it on their fp350s motor?

your money, but $100 to possibly save a $20k motor? Im in.
I have an FP350s engine in my car. Look for my write up. My FP350s engine has the oil balance lines from Ford Performance. I’m in support of the after market oil balance lines that are being mfg. Ford Performance didn’t patent the lines so they are open to being copied.

B2842241-8302-4367-BA81-87752AB467BC.jpeg

5DE1497A-7414-4124-A33C-6600234A8502.jpeg

28A984BF-64F3-48E4-A457-961B80E986BB.jpeg
 

EIGHTLUG

https://www.archetyperacing.com
Supporting Vendor
Well here is what MMR has to say on the issue...


One specific note I found interesting on MMR's website I've quoted below.

"NOTE: While we have seen some copies of the MMR product it should be noted that those kits using 2 hoses to join all of the lifter bores together are 100% unnecessary, they add cost, installation complexity, increased points for failure and leaking, increased weight and redundancy, this is because the lifter bores are already joined at the front of the cylinder head via a machined tunnel in the casting making a second hose completely useless."

Seems like MMR agrees a crossover is needed but they don't adhere to Ford's design with 2 lines. Interesting...
I’m posting about this comment by MMR, not to throw shade, but to clarify the mindset behind the product and the approach when we R&D it. Absolutely, the goal was to take what the OEM has on their race engines and improve upon it as much as would be in reason for the aftermarket. All of the boxes needed to be checked. No compromise.

•Quality
•Durability
•Installation requirements
•Proper fit
•OEM++
•Materials designed for the application
•Each line goes through QA and is pressure tested at 1,000 PSI.

This led me down the path of what I already know. Jet engine hoses. If it’s good for Mach 2+, that’s what I want. I didn’t benchmark against any product in the aftermarket, and it’s obvious. Well, unless your aftermarket catalog is from Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce.

Now, how this could relate to the MMR product.

True, the AR set is at a higher cost. Can’t deny that. $90 vs $140. So, for your additional $36 (with 10% TMO discount) you receive a pair of aircraft inspired Aramid Kevlar braided hoses that are also heat sheathed to combat under hood temps and abrasion. You also have a no compromise solution, as the factory intended, and the added peace of mind that comes with the dual lines. That’s a valued added product and all of a sudden, $90 for the single oil line doesn’t seem so appealing. My .02.
 
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9
3
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Indiana
@EIGHTLUG I appreciate your response. I concur that dual lines should be used (I don't have the data to go against what the Ford engineers thought was prudent). I concur that your lines appear to be very robust.

My questions mainly revolved around why they were needed. The honest answer may simply be, "well Ford did it on the FP350s, so we are offering a version of everyone else."
 

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