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BOSS DYNOED with Black Key and Red Key, Red Key SPARK-KNOCKING BAD

So the past 2 weekends I had the BOSS dyno'ed for the first time and second time...

The First time was on the Black Key, 93Oct. Gas, and I have been driving in heavy traffic and around town for a few months with no "PCM Reset".
The Results were less than pleasing:
DynoNov21013.jpg

So, after some research and talking "Justin with the White 2012 BOSS" he told me how to reset the PCM and KAM. So I did that, and only drove the car on the Black to the show where we put in the Red Key and let it eat on the Dyno (Same tank of 93Oct. Gas).
Here is the results which I was much "Happier With"
DynoNov92013.jpg

Better Numbers right? Where it should be basically right? But there is "New Problem" The car is spark-knocking BAD, at 5,000 RPM. In fact on the 2nd run of 3, he shut it down early because he was afraid the car would break it was knocking so bad (even though it still made 396HP.)

We talked about it and I said "Its under Warranty, if you going to break it, break it now so I can get it fixed under warranty" These engines shouldn't have any trouble until you get to 7,800 RPM roughly... and shouldn't be knocking that bad, so let her eat and we will see what happens.
He did, and it was knocking all the way from 5,000 to MAX, but it made 400.06HP on the last run.

He said with a "Tune" he can fix that knocking, cause I'm losing power with it doing that, but also damaging the engine. Plus he said without adding any other "Addons" besides a Tuner and Tune, I should be hitting 410HP. Add a CAI, 420, add Headers and H-Pipe, 450-460.

Now, obviously my first concern is the Spark-Knocking. Sure I have heard some of you say it happens, (especially the guys that race their cars) and I don't race or track my car, and rarely except for spirited driving from time to time do I ever rev above 5,000 RPM, which is where the spark-knocking showed up using the Red Key (No problems on the Black Key and same tank of Gas).

This leads me to believe that its the TracKey Tune itself. I talked to a Ford Engineer that was at the show and he was puzzled as to why it was doing that... He asked when I got my TracKey Program, and I told him Last July (2012), 2 days after I had the car. I asked if there were any updates to the TracKey, and he said "No, not that he is aware of".

So, While I certainly think Ford should fix this issue, either by adjusting the TracKey Tune (Which I know they will never do, especially just for my problem), they should at least either diagnose the engine, "Rebuild it if issues are found" or Replace it (which will instantly Kill any collectors or resale value because the numbers won't match). Or Allow me to extend my Warranty at no charge, or allow me to get my Dyno Guy to "Tune" the car to fix the Spark-Knocking and allow me to keep my warranty in tack.

To get the Tune done (plus a SCT Tuner) is roughly $600-$700 for a full Dyno Tune. But if I am going to do that, I might as well shoot for the moon and get a CAI, Kooks Long Tube Headers and H-Pipe and get it all done at once (roughly $2,100).

So what do you all think? What should I do? I am pursuing it with Ford, but like I said, I have a bad feeling that it won't get me much or very far. I know they are going to say "TracKey is on 8,000 other BOSS 302's out there and they are not having this issue, so its not the "TracKey Tune". Its a Bad Tank of Gas, or Bad Sensor, or something.. (well its the same tank of gas that nothing was wrong on with the Black Key), if its a bad sensor then that needs to be replaced and the car needs to be retested on the Dyno to make sure it fixes the problem (at Ford's expense, cause its $60 each time I run it).

Not worry about it and hope it stays together and if not hope it breaks before the warranty expires (2 years left basically)?
Car only has 4,090 miles on it.

Have it "Tuned" and lose the TracKey Tune and be done with it, hoping then that if any damage did occur prior to have it Dyno Tuned, that Ford will Honor the Warranty even with a "Custom Tune".

I have also put a video of the 2nd Dyno Run (with the Red Key) so you can all see and hear it... I can't really hear the Knocking, but I am on the Exhaust End and not in the cockpit where he can hear it (and see it on his readings).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-kXzW9AVwPQ
 
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How long of a resting period was there between runs?
I know that some knocking will happen with the red key if under hood temps start to rise. It does retard the timing in that instance though.
I do also recall hearing/reading that some knocking is normal for this tune. I'll try and dig that up, but I swear it came from a reputable source...such as the track key info package.
That said, this is all concerning. I'll keep watch on this topic. I hit the track with the red key a lot, and this scares me.
I didn't hear any pinging...but then again, the car is so loud I likely couldn't hear it anyway.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
First thing before you do anything is run a few tanks of better gas through it. I would also put a bottle of torco fuel additive in the tank now. This will raise the octane significantly and prevent any more damage. If you run with the trackey for a few days it will learn and the pinging should go away.

this is right from the trackey owner instructions
I hear slight "pinging" on engine acceleration from low speed. Should I be alarmed?
• TracKey alters the ignition timing and knock sensor calibrations taking full
advantage of premium fuel to deliver the maximum torque and throttle response
available from the engine. Some slight "pinging" on acceleration from low engine
speed may be audible initially but should rapidly subside.

first thing you need to do is run that tank out of the car and get gas from somewhere else. I had this problem back when I started to run gas from sams club or the gas stations on base.

Do I think you should tune the car? Yes. Do I think its necessary to fix this problem? No.

If you do decide to tune the car. Get the tuner and tunes from AED. He does remote tuning and free updates for bolt ons. so you can start with just the tune and tuner and add to it later. You will have to data log for him but that can be done on that same dyno you were just at(this is just as good as him being there once he gets all the data). He can create lopey idle tunes for you as well. I am running his tunes and they just dont compare to the other tunes I have had.


Now warranty. if your motor lets go with a tune on it. 99.9% sure you will not get it replaced under warranty. Now I know a "friend" that has been able to get his motor repaired under warranty with a tune. If you have the money buy another ECU now and keep the one in it now tune free and flash the tunes to the second one. then if all goes to hell put that stock ecu back in and stock parts back on and hope for the best. this is what my "friend" did.

For what parts. I recommend Steeda Boss CAI or AirAID.
Exhaust for the headers I would go with American racing headers and the x pipe with the side pipe kick outs. This is what I run and it sounds amazing. They are a true full length header where the kooks is a glorified mid length. For the cat back portion that is up to you I thoroughly enjoy my magnaflow comp cat back.

I am making this with my set up. numbers will vary from dyno to dyno. prior to the headers I made 408 on E85 this is on 93.
580174_609560215743220_1127615712_n.jpg


Summary:
AED tunes
AIRAID or Steeda CAI
American Racing Headers
Your choice of cat back or axle back.
 
I think you should re-test before you contemplate any other changes. I would recommend pulling your spark plugs - re-confirming gap and potentially just replacing them with new as inexpensive insurance. Run through your current tank of fuel - using the black key and then get another tank of fuel and go back to the dyno. There is someting very, very strange with that last pull. If you look at the a/f's they were very high - in a region where the ECU would simply NOT let the car run normally. Unlike any other previous year Mustangs, our cars have wideband O2 sensors on each bank and the ECU is monitoring the widebands for proper A/F ratios and making adjustmensts real time. Something was amiss on that last pull - maybe it was simply the test data.

The TK program by Fors is, in my opinion, the BEST possible tune for the car if you want to run road courses in various weather conditions and DA's. If you are a 1/4 mi guy, then maybe a different tune could be considered but I wouldn't road course the car on anything but the OEM TK.

Oh, and forget about any advantages of a CAI. The Bosses HAVE a CAI from the factory and it is as good or better than anything out there.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
If you aren't running an oil separator on the passenger side (or a full crankcase breather system), I suggest you do that now. Oil vapor from the crankcase via the PCV system lowers the effective octane.

Also go to the dealer and get your TracKey reloaded with the Spark adjustment setting set to 'Y'.

And I agree with the other suggestions about your current gas. Might simply be bad gas or if you get the 'winter blend' BS like we do out here.
 
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0
Is hearing the knock the only way to sense it? Aren't there knock sensors that initiate a CEL? The engine is so loud, I dont even know what to hear for.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
CoolTechLLC said:
Oh, and forget about any advantages of a CAI. The Bosses HAVE a CAI from the factory and it is as good or better than anything out there.
This is not true. Yes the factory intake is considered a cold air intake. If you go with a AIRAID CAI and leave the insert in making it to the same diameter as the factory size then yes if wont make much over stock 5 at best. Remove it and make it bigger and you allow the car to pull in more air easier. So it is worth power. Under your theory a throttle body wouldnt be worth it.

And with any part its a building block to making the engine move air in and out more efficiently. So while on its own it is only worth around 10-15 hp it will help get more out of a full exhaust and a throttle body.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
sadil said:
Is hearing the knock the only way to sense it? Aren't there knock sensors that initiate a CEL? The engine is so loud, I dont even know what to hear for.
the car has knock sensors. you can detect this with a data logger.
here you can see on my data logs where there was to much spark advance and the computer pulled that spark advance.
69045_486336548065588_1744891283_n.jpg

here is a better pull where the spark stays pretty well flat
547054_487322947966948_977238709_n.jpg
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
here is stock maf housing verses a Steeda Boss CAI Maf housing
553756_451221368243773_1332262832_n.jpg

here is that above measurement held in side of the steeda housing
315473_451221271577116_1213063694_n.jpg

here is the steeda's measurement
531200_451221114910465_857048545_n.jpg

here they are laying beside each other
602568_451220364910540_881422688_n.jpg
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
I would wait for the new SCT tuner to come out if you do get one.
http://www.stangtv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2013-sct-releases-new-x4-programmer-to-replace-sf3-and-x3/
MG3_7465-640x426.jpg
 
Went to the dealer who installed the TracKey, and they are going to check some of things you suggested as far as plugs and see if it's possible to reflash the key or not.

On the way back from the dealer I put the TracKey in an ran it up to 5,300 RPM in 4th gear and I think I heard it knocking, kinda sound like your running through sand or gravel?

Not sure as I don't really know what to listen for and or if I could even hear it, but I shifte and slowed her down after I heard that.

I will run through this tank of gas and have it Dynoed again with has from a different company and location, see if that makes a difference at all.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
rpm3dinc said:
Went to the dealer who installed the TracKey, and they are going to check some of things you suggested as far as plugs and see if it's possible to reflash the key or not.

On the way back from the dealer I put the TracKey in an ran it up to 5,300 RPM in 4th gear and I think I heard it knocking, kinda sound like your running through sand or gravel?

Not sure as I don't really know what to listen for and or if I could even hear it, but I shifte and slowed her down after I heard that.

I will run through this tank of gas and have it Dynoed again with has from a different company and location, see if that makes a difference at all.
sounds metallic like beating on top of your piston with a spoon if you can picture that.
Be sure to either run the above fuel additive or race fuel for the next pull. This will rule out it being the fuel.
 
Make sure you stick with Brand Name Gas. I always use 93 Octane BP on the street and Sunoco at the track. I've had my Track Key since day one and have never heard the engine ping once.

I have heard of some unscrupulous stations that sell gas that is the wrong octane, so I would never go to a "no name" station IMO. Good Luck.
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,552
2,392
Arizona, USA
Typically with detonation you also see short puffs of smoke out of the exhaust, similar to what happens when you hit the rev limiter. Unfortunately, the camera on your video wasn't pointed at the exhaust exit for the entire run(s) so it's tough to say. I didn't hear anything odd, and the car's HP and torque curves look pretty clean.

That being said, trying more gas isn't a bad idea. Thinking Ford will pay for any of that iterative testing stuff is probably naive at best.

FWIW the Torco stuff works, I use it in my race car to bump 91 up to 96.
 

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