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BOSS DYNOED with Black Key and Red Key, Red Key SPARK-KNOCKING BAD

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boro92 said:
...but without a knock sensor and/or tuning for each individual car, how will you ever get it to stop pinging?

By taking it to the dealer and having them follow the procedures outlined in the TracKey instructions. The instructions also mention oil in the intake as being a possible cause, so I would say that having an oil separator installed would be a Best Practice for TracKey use.

I'm on Day 4 of having TracKey and I have not heard any knock or ping at any rpm. Not once.
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,739
2,755
Arizona, USA
Just to beat the dead horse a bit: The only time I heard knocking with TK was on the dyno below 3000 RPM when going to WOT, and that is with 91 swill gas.

Ford updated the TK instructions to note this a bit as well; bottom line is they intend the TK for use on the track, where you shouldn't be operating below 3000RPM anyways. If you're under 3K, keep it out of WOT.

If you're having issues above 3K RPM, there is probably something else involved.
 

302 Hi Pro

Boss 302 - Racing Legend to Modern Muscle Car
2,009
441
Southeast
rpm3dinc said:
So I just got off the phone with my Dyno Guy, he attended a Tuner's Conference in Dec. and talked to many tuners about the BOSS and Dyno results... There was also a Ford Rep. there, and it was found that the Knock Sensor is in fact disabled and or turned down with the TracKey. This explains why no knock was seen in the data or heard while on dyno with the Black Key, but was seen and heard with the Red Key. Obviously Ford isn't allowing tuners to modify or adjust the TracKey file... So the only way to really get rid of it is to Custom Tune the car... Which should make more power and allow for adjustments, however the "Lopey Idle" may not be possible without really testing the timing at idle and seeing what works best...

They also suggested running Torco Fuel Additive as several of you have suggested, but even then, it won't really do much if the motor is knocking with the TracKey, only way to truly fix it is a tune... it may be as simple as adjusting the timing half a point to 1 point to fix the issue...

So the saga continues... Ford is not going to change anything on the TracKey tune, and each engine though the same internally might have difference tolerances, even slight ones can produce a knock in some BOSS cars and not in others...

This is interesting, but when I read this post it is just hearsay from an aftermarket tuner. Oh yes who attended a conference. Don't you see any thing wrong here? Did it ever occur to you that your tuner wants you to dump your TracKey tune, and sell you his tune? Do you really believe that Ford Racing disabled the Knock Sensors with TracKey?

These engines have knock sensors for a reason, pull back the timing to avoid detonation. Why is this necessary? Consider this: "The fuel-air charge is meant to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise point in the piston's stroke. Knock occurs when the peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive."

Do you really think Ford Racing would turn off the knock sensors? I could be wrong, but I just don't believe it. Have you considered other causes or reasons why you have detonation with your TracKey? Just know that Ford Racing is too good at what they do, and engines would be going down with piston damage everywhere. But they are not.

I hope you do find the cause, but my guess is there is more to this than we know at this point. Have you taken it back to a Ford Racing certified Ford Dealer? Maybe good to get a second opinion.
Hope you find a resolve and find it soon.

Good luck with the fix,
302 Hi Pro

OBTW: The quote was from a simple google search of detonation internal combustion.
 
302 Hi Pro said:
Do you really think Ford Racing would turn off the knock sensors? I could be wrong, but I just don't believe it.
I don't believe it either.
 
I have taken it to Ford Racing Certified Dealer, they heard it knock too, and was there the day it Dynoed. Tuner isn't selling me anything, he has way more than enough work, and he said the TracKey is actually a decent factory tune, while it could be better Ford did a good job. Obviously without knowing what all it does since it's a locked tune it's not possible to change anything on it.

When the FRD looked at it, they called Ford Racing and talked to a tech. Tech said it's doing nothing wrong.

So I don't know where that leaves me, Ford says it's "fine", but everyone hears a problem. After talking at length with my tuner about possible causes, mainly timing and gas, there no doubt that it will take some time to figure out, even if Ford acknowledge a problem, which currently the FRD dealer does, but not Ford Racing themselves.

Yes Knock Sensors are there for a reason, and unless I have a bastard child TracKey tune, I can't explain why the sensors kick in on the black and don't on the Red Key.

I can go back to the FRD and demand something be done, change plugs, replace ECU, PCM, etc. but none of it will be covered under warranty unless Ford Racing Approves it or acknowledges a problem, which they seem reluctant to do. The Dealer's hands are tied by Ford, so what options does that leave me?

I trust Pro-Dyno, they are ranked in top 5 of tuners in the country, they are the Official Dyno company for Mustang Week, have been featured in almost every mustang magazine out there, have numerous awards for tuning mustangs, and are specialized in mustangs and Shelby performance vehicles.

Guess I have no choice, or a limited one but to either live with the problem and hope it goes really wrong before the warranty expires, or be left with a $45,000 paper-weight when it goes after warranty.

From what I hear there are no BOSS crate motors left on the market to replace it with even if it came down to that. So I will have to hope that any damage that occurs will be able to fixed by rebuilding the engine.

Perhaps when some of you come to Charlotte for the 50th, you can drive my BOSS and see what you think...
 
Maybe I missed it, but have you had it back on the dyno since adding the Torco to the gas? I don't run the Trackey very often but play with it once in a while and used it when I flogged her at the track and I never noticed a ping at any rpm range. Is the trackey tune so super secret that the dealer can't even look at the parameters? Maybe you could get a video with good audio quality and have your dealer email it to FR. If nothing can be done I wouldn't use it. I think there a Ford customer service rep on the mustangsource forum that has helped a lot of people, her name is Desha, I think. It's worth a shot.
 
I haven't had it back to the Dyno (for the 3rd time) yet, I plan on going again soon to see if it is still knocking, if it is I will follow up with my Ford Racing Dealership. I plan to take video of the Dyno Run from several angles this next time using my GoPro's... Going to try to mount one by the rear so you can see the exhaust, as well as one in the engine bay and in the Cockpit... that way hopefully we can pick up the knocking and RPM range it is happening on...

Please accept my apologies if my posts come across like an ass, that's not what is intended, I am simply frustrated that the Car I have always wanted and love and pay damn good money for seems to have a problem that Ford to this point is unwilling to acknowledge or supply a fix for... Maybe its nothing, maybe its doing what its suppose to do according to Ford Racing, but I have my doubts after talking to all of you, my Dyno Guy, and my Ford Racing Dealership...

So far the easiest fix is to buy a tuner and get the car dyno-tuned... but with that comes another set of problems, the largest being Ford possibly revoking my Warranty on the car (even though there are only 2 years left), I can always re-load the TracKey Tune from my tuner device, that is a non-issue, But Ford has made it clear from what I understand that if you Custom Tune the BOSS 302 your warranty more than likely will be void... Not a big deal on a Clutch issue, or maybe even a Transmission issue.. but on a Engine that is no longer being made and or is available on the market that is a HUGE ISSUE, not to mention the $13,000 price tag plus labor to replace it... Then of course you have the "Resale" value drop due to non-matching numbers... Summit Racing and Late Model Resto claim to have BOSS 302 Engine still in stock... but I have also seen stuff in stock at their sites that are "Not Available"... Regardless that is not something I think I need to replace or do, now or ever if luck has it in my favor...

I don't ever plan on selling this amazing car and piece of history, but as we all know plans change and are sometimes forced on us...
 
rpm3dinc said:
Please accept my apologies if my posts come across like an ass, that's not what is intended, I am simply frustrated that the Car I have always wanted and love and pay damn good money for seems to have a problem that Ford to this point is unwilling to acknowledge or supply a fix for... Maybe its nothing, maybe its doing what its suppose to do according to Ford Racing, but I have my doubts after talking to all of you, my Dyno Guy, and my Ford Racing Dealership...
Nobody's taking it that way and we understand your frustration. Yours isn't the only car that had pinging after the TK install either. The only thing I can think of is you possibly have defective knock sensor(s) or something associated with that. I would think if that was the case you would throw a code but who knows. I think taking a good video and giving it to your dealer so they can forward it to FR is a great idea.
 
NFSBOSS said:
Nobody's taking it that way and we understand your frustration. Yours isn't the only car that had pinging after the TK install either. The only thing I can think of is you possibly have defective knock sensor(s) or something associated with that. I would think if that was the case you would throw a code but who knows. I think taking a good video and giving it to your dealer so they can forward it to FR is a great idea.

I didn't think you came across as an ass, I thought you came across like your were disgruntled with FR's responds. If I got the feeling FR was blowing me off and implies no one knows what the hell there talking about, I would be pissed like everyone else would be. Good luck! Hope they find the fix.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
me personally I would just get a tune. worried about warranty.....buy an oem ecu have the tune put on it save the original one. then if something happens....put in the original one. how they tell if it had a flash on it or not is number of key cycles and something else...there is a tsb out to the techs on how to check. diablosport tuners dont reset this but finding a tuner that uses diablosport is hard to come by (one that is good).
 
Justin said:
me personally I would just get a tune. worried about warranty.....buy an oem ecu have the tune put on it save the original one. then if something happens....put in the original one. how they tell if it had a flash on it or not is number of key cycles and something else...there is a tsb out to the techs on how to check. diablosport tuners dont reset this but finding a tuner that uses diablosport is hard to come by (one that is good).

So what you saying is a good tuner can negate the flag so you can't tell anyone was in there?
 

302 Hi Pro

Boss 302 - Racing Legend to Modern Muscle Car
2,009
441
Southeast
racerred302:

You do not come across that way, and after I re-read my post reply, I want you to know It sounded a little terse, as I misunderstood your plight. So let me apologies for that.

Going forward, maybe you can run data log files to send in with your videos. Also I do understand your concern to maintain your warranty and I do believe you have the right to have this thoroughly diagnosed by your FRD. The problem is, you have to stick with your dealer to find the resolve. Once the dealer or the Zone Rep believes you have a tuner involved, the will be very reluctant to assist you.

If you stay with Ford, follow their instruction and get this problem documented, (insist on repair orders, not just NFP), you will have cause for warranty repairs. Once you go aftermarket tune, your done.

It's a big decision and now that I see the bigger picture with the additional information you provided, I do feel for you and your frustration. Just be careful with detonation, it can go south and go south fast with catastrophic results.

I wish you the best,
302 Hi Pro
 
Just popped my head in here to see what's going on. I read this thread some time ago, but I noticed lately that it keeps getting bumped TTT with new posts.

My Boss also spark knocks at WOT on the track key at low RPM's on 91 octane. From what I've read, a few people also have the same problem. Granted, we are a small percentage:
-live in CA (and are therefore limited to 91 instead of 93)
-have the track key installed
-try to drive at low RPM at WOT
-have exhaust that isn't so loud it drowns out the noise
-know what engine knock sounds like

As a casual engine builder, I know that spark knock is bad and something to be avoided. How much damage is being done? The only way to find out is to do a teardown.
Having said that, I assume that FR has done exactly that and deemed that the damage was either negligible or acceptable. I was also told by FR that the knocking was normal and would go away eventually.

To me, the knocking sound is like nails on a chalkboard. After 2 tanks of gas, it did not seem to be going away as FR said, so I have located a gas station in my area that sells 100 at the pump for about $9/gal. It's a 76 station at the Redlands Auto Spa in Redlands, CA. I mix 3 to 1, 91 and 100 octane at the pump when I want to run the track key and the "problem" is solved. I figured out it costs me about $20 more per fill up to do this, which I just chalk up to one more BS thing I have to deal with because I live in CA.
 

302 Hi Pro

Boss 302 - Racing Legend to Modern Muscle Car
2,009
441
Southeast
rpm3dinc said:
Thanks Justin, I do plan on adding this to the next full tank

Here is a Ford Racing document or publication that might help you if you decide to pursue this with Ford Racing. Note at the bottom of page 4 Ford Racing speaks about their concern for the customer regarding Spark Knock.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/tipsPDF/EnginePerformanceTechTips.pdf

So next time your dealer tells you it is a Normal condition, remind them that it is not. You just might find this is a fuel quality condition. I'm lucky in that I have Sunoco 93 octane available which has shown favorable results with TracKey operation.

Good luck,
2HP
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
racered302 said:
So what you saying is a good tuner can negate the flag so you can't tell anyone was in there?
no I'm saying the diablo sport in tune leaves no finger print. Sct does not do this it resets key cycles etc.
 
You mean this text from the PDF?

They often advance spark timing to potentially unsafe levels. We test our calibrations in a wind tunnel and in hot, dry weather to verify
that potentially damaging spark knock or catastrophic pre-ignition does not occur. We also do cold weather and altitude testing as
well as extensive emissions and durability testing on several vehicles before we release a calibration to the customer. Most other
companies do not have the time or the resources to do the same type of testing that we do. Some companies do not realize that
they need to perform this type of testing in the first place!

Not sure how that helps my cause since they are talking about "Dyno Tuners" and I am not dyno tuning, just having test hits on the Dyno, but still using a Ford Racing Tune (TracKey)

302 Hi Pro said:
Here is a Ford Racing document or publication that might help you if you decide to pursue this with Ford Racing. Note at the bottom of page 4 Ford Racing speaks about their concern for the customer regarding Spark Knock.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/tipsPDF/EnginePerformanceTechTips.pdf
 
80
0
why didn`t you get them to reflash your trackey and activate the octane adjust setting?

If you are having a spark knock issues thats what the techs will activate in the trackey tune.

Ford racing will tell you the same thing, if your not happy with the knocking, go back and get octane adjust enabled in the trackey tune.
 
I would be glad to try that if Ford Racing would allow it... Ford Racing (Head Office) said the car is acting like its supposed to and don't reflash tune and or change plugs...

I asked them about that option on the tune and they "Ford Racing" said "We don't know what your talking about" LOL
 
80
0
Well it`s nothing for them to allow? its right in their install instructions , print them off and show them..even tells them how to enable it ?

I called ford Racing before and they talked about octane adjust, said slight ping is normal but get octane adjust enabled if you don`t want any.

I think I would seriously go to another ford dealer who sold boss cars and have them do it.
 
That's just it, its not the Dealer (Who is a Ford Racing Dealer), they are willing to do it, but since it would be a Warranty fix, they have to notify and call the Main Office for Ford Racing... Its the Main Ford Racing Office that said "Don't Touch it, its fine"...
 

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