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Srsly how far is this going to go with bogus regulations forcing us to buy vehicles that will further destroy the US auto industry and who's infrastructure has yet to be developed?

 
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This is ridiculous. They are forcing the auto manufacturers but not the energy producers. So in reality, there will probably be more emissions emitted "down the road" by the power suppliers. I don’t see them running to build more solar & wind farms to convert to clean energy.
 
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Solar and wind farms can’t produce enough to power an entire country running on electric and they’re not reliable. My issue is this is America and we should have a right to choose what we want if you want an EV great go buy one, if you want an ICE great go buy one, the government shouldn’t be telling you what u have to do. And it’s starting to feel like our free country isn’t free anymore it’s ridiculous
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
963
1,251
Exp. Type
Autocross
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20+ Years
Connecticut
How long before dealers are putting $5k - $10k markups on all the ICE-powered vehicles on the lot? Heck, to get the fleet CAFE numbers they need, brands will probably resort to elastic pricing to force the needed EV/ICE mix - imagine you can buy a Camry with an EV drivetrain standard, and a gas engine is a $3k option.

The elimination of the waiver for manufacturers selling fewer than 5k/yr means the niche brands (McLaren, Lambo, RR, Pagani, Konigseggseggseggsegg, etc.) will be forced to sell full-EVs as well.
 

PatientZero

@restless_performance
824
860
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10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
What kills me about all these forced EV plans is that they all assume everyone lives in suburbia with access to a charger in their garage or where they work. I live in a very rural area. I doubt there is a charger within 25 miles of me. 75% of houses don't even have a garage to install a charger. What about people that live in apartments or gated communities where parking is limited? What about households with multiple drivers that would all need to charge an EV every night to be able to get to work the next day? What about very congested communities in the inner city where a large portion of people have to park on the street because the housing developers packed as many 1/5 acre lots in as they could to maximize profits? These people live in their own little bubble with absolutely no conception of how the real world works or how people really live. Where I work does have 2 chargers in the parking lot, we also have 7000 employees...
 
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What kills me about all these forced EV plans is that they all assume everyone lives in suburbia with access to a charger in their garage or where they work. I live in a very rural area. I doubt there is a charger within 25 miles of me. 75% of houses don't even have a garage to install a charger. What about people that live in apartments or gated communities where parking is limited? What about households with multiple drivers that would all need to charge an EV every night to be able to get to work the next day? What about very congested communities in the inner city where a large portion of people have to park on the street because the housing developers packed as many 1/5 acre lots in as they could to maximize profits? These people live in their own little bubble with absolutely no conception of how the real world works or how people really live. Where I work does have 2 chargers in the parking lot, we also have 7000 employees...
Yep they do live in their own bubble of non reality. You can tell that in some of their statements like what about job losses in the coal and gas industry? and the old just go out and buy an electric car.. like sure, normies have money to just throw around. The other problem here is that on a whim, they can limit the amount of driving you can do by rolling blackouts, or, if they simply don't like you, they just shut the power off. The big issue here is why does the EPA get to create laws without any representation? They are an enforcement agency only. I just hate seeing the feds get so much power over individuals.
 
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3-5 Years
SoCal
Unfortunately, there is no winning here. The group of people pushing this agenda have SOOO much power and influence. If you're against them (the ESG) they will blast you in the media, pull funding, ruin your business, etc.

I'm all for cleaner air but they way they are going about this is extreme. It makes much more logical sense to find a cleaner, renewable fuel that can be applied to ALL current vehicles than create a whole new platform and whole new infrastructure. Have studies even been conducted to compare the impact of lithium mining and the pollution produced to create EV's to gas engines? Probably not since that would be against their divine agenda.

I know it sounds like a conspiracy (maybe it is) but it really seems like one big master plan. They're quietly turning "democracy" into a dictatorship right in front of us.
Look who are some of the largest shareholders of Edison (who will control when you can charge your car)...Vanguard and Blackrock. Who are the biggest proponents of ESG policy?....Vanguard and Blackrock.
 

PatientZero

@restless_performance
824
860
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
I bet with the same effort and money poured into hydrogen or any number of the synthetic gasolines that have been created, we would have it figured out by now.

The problem is they are not worried about solving a problem. They just want to push their "solution".
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,365
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20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
I spent over 31 years in the Automobile Business, broken up by around 13 years selling Pharmaceuticals and doing Financial Planning, and over the years I observed all my car buddies getting way to upset over things that took forever to actually implement. The furor over catalytic converters was nuts, and we still have folks stating ethanol will screw up your motor even though tons of track rats use it and Manufacturers made amends for its usage decades ago. We worried about Government edicts for better fuel economy standards for the mid 20s over a decade back and yet we got vehicles getting 20, 30, 40, 50 and beyond, miles per gallon. Companies traded off Carbon Credits and more and yet the reality ( yes, what actually happened ) is everything was delayed every single decade because when push came to shove the Auto Industry has more clout than any Democratic or Republican regulations. I may just be getting too old , but after seeing what actually has happened since the 70s I just don't see much to get overly bent out of shape about. Fifty plus years has shown that proposed regulations and more never happen on time, but honestly I have to look back , logically, and realize many of the new regulations actually caused innovation and made vehicles better. We, as Trackrats, have to chill, go out into our garages and view cars with horsepower, suspensions, and safety equipment, that means we can outrun 90% of the race cars made not that many decades back.

The comment last year that Ford would be 40% Electric by 2030 had folks slitting their wrists, yet calm and common sense seldom intervened, because only a few glass half full folks realized that meant...............drum roll .............60% of the vehicles would not be fully electric.

The one comment that seldom arises, and that I find odd, is the realization that we are the leader in the World for Automotive Technology and we were being left behind in Electric and alternative propulsion. As a Capitalistic Country we are following more the direction the World is going and we need to continue our dominance, but.................logic tells us there are entire continents that can not change quickly. We will have ICE machines for years to come and we really should relax a bit, truly view what has happened historically, and enjoy the special machines we have now and what we will have in the future.

Mark my words, new , insane Hybrids will succeed in keeping ICE around for a very long time, because infrastructure in developing Countries is still flat lined, and we all know how long it takes for things to morph into full capable systems in the US. Regardless of what party was in power it has taken close to 3 decades to get Infrastructure Bills into place.

I am getting more and more mellow as I age, but then I decided my glass was half full decades back when I realized how lucky I was to have fun cars, a nice home , a cute wife, great kids, etc. in a World where a mad Autocrat is destroying a neighboring Country almost analogous to WWII.

And for the rest of you old farts, remember , you will likely be six feet under long before there are a ton of EVs roaming the planet, ha!
 
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PatientZero

@restless_performance
824
860
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
Son just bought an electric Talaria Sting R MX4 dirt bike. He loves it!! It has a top speed of 60 plus MPH and super quiet. I had to remind Him He modded His Yamaha Bolt to be louder than my Boss.LOL...............................
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
7,490
5,169
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HPDE
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10-20 Years
Illinois
Death of an industry? Cars are going away? A bit over dramatic.

Will I drive an EV? When they can do what I need done, I will consider my options. Since I have driven a light truck as my daily since the 90’s, I don’t see an EV on my side of the garage any time soon. Will a four wheel drive Mustang EV replace my wife’s SUV? I’ll let you know when the Explorer is put out to pasture.

Like Bill, I too remember the Catalytic Converter “Test Tube” era. The unfortunate reality is that until a car is in production, people drive them and break them we don’t know what will work and what will survive. Relax, it’s a process.

In my opinion the best innovation(s) in the evolution of the auto industry have been those which have made the cars more durable. That happened when one of them foreigners made a car that would last and they put a warranty on their line of cars. The end result was car/trucks foreign and domestic that last. yes, all brought about by foreign competition. History is the best indicator of the future.
Relax.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
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20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
We are a " Blame Society " today when the reality is the auto industry needs no help or comments from the EPA, the World already dictated the move towards different motive power. What is so ironic to me is friends at two of the Big 3s I talked to years back actually were working on systems to change and innovate their products, because they knew they were behind China. I just don't worry because things take time, but every time we doubt the American system we come up with new solutions to dominate markets. I may never have an EV, but I am not afraid of change, and having driven a Porsche Taycan I realized then, in the long run, I like speed more than noise --- and that surprised this old fart!
 
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I will stand by my statement that this will even further destroy the US automakers. You can make the claim that they are based in the US, but if all the manufacturing processes are off shore, that is not , in reality a US automaker.
I've seen this before, in 1970 the US was doing great building cars, then the Clean air Act was passed. Not really a bad idea in itself, but it was always the collateral damage that makes the difference. As an example, at the time the design to build took about 3 to 5 years. The Clean Air Act made the automakers redesign their cars in 2 years. They couldn't, it was impossible, In Japan, meanwhile, the government over there created a design bureau that involved EVERY Japanese automaker in a think tank to overcome issues in implementing their version of the CAA, several years before the US CAA.
So, in the US, the automakers cut the compression ratios, added on things like EGR valves and other miscellaneous junk that made the cars less dependable, and also made them use more fuel. This was done to satisfy the CAA implementation date, while a better car could be designed.
And away we went, with undependable cars that got lousy mileage and made little horsepower... then the oil cartels shut off the gas spigot.
The US automakers were left holding the bag while the door was kicked open for Japanese automakers to start flooding the market with dependable, fuel efficient cars. and that was the demise of the US auto industry in a couple of paragraphs.
Go look at some old TV shows.. my wife and I occaisionally watch Adam 12, an old 70 ish show about cops. There's nary a foreign car anywhere in sight, and compare that to any modern TV show, now the roles are reversed.
That type of governemnt meddling is what destroys complete industries, because they have no idea how things are built or designed, they just spew rules. In europe there are actually rules set up by the EU that limits the amount of noise a tire makes on the highway. This is what bureaucrats do, they expand their universe and control. Just like the federal government, even if a budget is not passed, the budget is still automatically increased by about 8% per year. Prez. Reagan once stated that his biggest failure was not being able to reign in the US government bureaucracy.
This is exactly where we are today, the government is trying to create and destroy matrkets based on the idea of climate change (although, I can't really remember when the climated didn't change) it is not up to the government to create and destroy markets, especially when they have no idea what they are doing, or the processes involved outside of just making more rules. If you don't believe me, just go talk to any DC elected representative and ask them some questions, they can be Republican or Democrat, it doesn't matter, they live in the DC bubble where normal life doesn't effect them.
This whole EV deal, unless it is market driven, is a giant turd of US resources and manpower being flushed down the government sewer. It will essentially end many US manufacturing jobs and they will be sent offshore. All those giant wind machines that say SIEMENS written on the side, are made in China, among other places. The fact that a "zero" emission vehicle could even exist is ludicrous and stupid, but in the divine intelligentsia of our rulers it is only measured at the tailpipe and not in the building, manufacturing, maintenance or disposal of the product. Control the fake rules, and you control the fake outcomes, then wonder why it doesn't work.
Right now, in California, you can no longer build a gas station, they have banned diesels in the future. This means that anything going to Cali will have to be transferred to a Cali compliant vehicle in the future. Obviously this will drive up the prices of products and goods, but that's OK, state taxes are based on the final price of goods, out the door, so this will be a huge windfall for the state of California that can't fritter away enough of its financial resources now. You will be paying for it, the people that make their living out of creating this kind of stupidity should name their kids after you.
I bet someplace there is some guy watching the US right now thinking.. Wow, those guys had enough coal to power their future for.. forever, they shut down all their nuke plants that could've provided an adequate substitute for it, and they were energy independent as of 2021. Now they finished destroying their manufacturing facilities and processes that were so powerful it was called the "arsenal of democracy" at one time, and is now a rusting wasteland. Their dollar was replaced by the Yuen as a backup currency because they have become so weak financially. There is no more upward mobility unless you work for the government. Everything is taxed.
Their country committed suicide.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,365
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Exp. Type
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20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Blacksheep, I love you man, but you are just repeating the same gloom and doom us old farts have heard every decade. Humans hate change , but change usually creates innovation. I don't like a lot of things the government mandates, but the coal industry has been on its way out , Worldwide, for years, it is just too dirty, yet the issue really is we are simply going through another type ( insane Tech ) of Industrial Revolution. I sometimes think Americans are complacent because we have so much and it takes other parts of the World to get innovative hen we buckle down and knock folks off the pedestal. I find so much humor in the human race the older I get, because I have to laugh at all the things that get us upset and if we really looked in the mirror we might question many of our thoughts. Right now we have historic unemployment rates , the stock market is roaring, the dollar is strong , and though we have frustrating inflation, we are virtually the lowest of any Industrialized nation.

Not getting political, but I remember chatting with a past customer of mine and he was moaning about those damn illegal immigrants. His response was different than I expected, he said the stupid Government needs to open the doors even more, he didn't have anyone available to keep his Plant running at full capacity. Staunch Republican, and he told me not to tell his friends, but his concern was no workers. Life is humorous, and we have gotten spoiled with too much time spent moaning instead of appreciating our blessings, imho.

The one truism is the entire World revolves around the almighty US Dollar, and that is something I would worry about if it ever changes. The world currency is in reality based on the US, often referred to by noted Economists and Financial experts as the single biggest reason our Country has retained it's dominance , regardless of the little setbacks we feel are occurring.

Big article on CNBC today stating the World will not likely have infrastructure completed to protect water, air, land pollution and provide power till maybe 2050. In other words we are just getting started now, and it is unlikely process that will not be even done in more than a quarter of a century. You and I will be pushing up daisies, and understanding humans reluctance to move unless pushed, I am actually confident with that many years to get things accomplished, we will have completely new technology replacing what we think will occur today.

....and have a nice day.
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
7,490
5,169
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Illinois
When 1 Adam 12 was doing a traffic stop all the cars were supplied by the auto manufacturer. Every wonder why Ford always pulled over Fords, and Chevys the same?? It just depended upon the show. Let’s not forget we always bought a new American car….every 4 years. Why?? We had to, they fell apart. Only a fool put a five year loan on a car because the car would not last five years without see through fenders and an overhaul of that great American V-8. Ah….the good ole days. The ole days get better as our memories get worse.
 
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When 1 Adam 12 was doing a traffic stop all the cars were supplied by the auto manufacturer. Every wonder why Ford always pulled over Fords, and Chevys the same?? It just depended upon the show. Let’s not forget we always bought a new American car….every 4 years. Why?? We had to, they fell apart. Only a fool put a five year loan on a car because the car would not last five years without see through fenders and an overhaul of that great American V-8. Ah….the good ole days. The ole days get better as our memories get worse.
No, those cars in the 70 to the 80s were horrible, how they got that way is the issue. Yes the mfg supplied the subject cars,but the stock footage was whatever on the street.
 
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NJ
IMO, the issue is more that this is politically driven with little regard to the carnage being created along the way. Maybe EV's really are the next evolution but in current state I'm not convinced. We need to slow way down and let common sense take back over. If that is even still a thing in our world anymore.
 

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