Buy EVs or we will kill you

[TMSBOSS]

What made the US auto industry better?? Foreign competition And federal regulations. I could not imagine having the crap Detroit was building in the 70’s today. Without foreign competition we would still be stuck with Cars which fell apart at 13 k miles. Ask me about the cam I had to replace in a 79 Pontiac at 13,000 miles. Without federal regulations we would still be burning fuels with lead at the rate of 7-12 miles per gallon. No thanks. I am not a big government guy, but i do realize there are times when competition will not bring about the changes needed.
The advantage we have today with the World Wide environmental push is the leveling of the playing field. We were forced to accept the federal standards In the 70’s and 80’s as a nation while to majority of the world did not. Today all manufacturers will have to produce quality or fail. Are you concerned US companies can’t compete? I’m not.
Comparing the challenges we have today with the challenges we faced in the 70’s is positive. What did we see as the end result from that “Crisis”? Automotive ignition systems which last over 100,000 miles before required maintenance. 3-5000 miles was about all you could get from a set of points before they needed attention. Fuel systems which adjust on the fly and run as lean/efficiently as possible. We had to change fuel filters when we changed points and plugs. Todays fuel systems are durable With many eliminating the filter all together. Rust resistant bodies are a product of federal regulations.
Did ya see the HP ratings on some of them new cars??
Would Detroit have the product they make today without foreign competition and federal regulations? Nope.
I am still positive about the future.

 

[Theviking]

Maybe, but what's happening today with EV's is not evolutionary. It's reinventing the wheel. And that's fine if and when it makes sense. But it seems like the powers to be have largely all but abandoned ICE and hybrid development for largely political reasons. There is no charging infrastructure (or grid) in place to handle a large scale migration. Charging times are still an issue with anything but the fastest stations. Sufficient raw materials don't exist and are difficult to obtain. As a result average costs of EV's are astronomical from everything I've seen recently. Battery energy density still stinks in comparison to most ICE fuels. Weather is still a large factor in range and operability. The weight is insane on larger vehicles. Fire is a valid concern with lithium batteries. Could go on but most here are probably already familiar. I'll agree I'm old fashioned, but it's still the truth.

 

[TMSBOSS]

So the present administration and their ideas will collapse under their own weight? Is that not also evolutionary? Patience.

 

[Theviking]

Yes, and hope you're right.

 

[blacksheep-1]

So the present administration and their ideas will collapse under their own weight? Is that not also evolutionary? Patience.

And the sooner the better..
Here's the problem when government intervenes in things they know nothing about. Pic 1 is a 70 Camaro. NHTSA, and the Insurance industry all got on board with the clear, scientific evidence that by creating 5 mph, energy absorbent bumpers, vehicle costs and maintenance would go down along with insurance rates.


So the government forced the 5 mph bumpers on to the auto industry resulting in this...



All well and good but what the imbeciles at the NHTSA never considered is that these low mph impacts happened at angle of 30 degrees, so the end result was that the new compliant bumpers were damaged even worse, costing more to fix and actually driving repairs and insurance up, not down.
And this @TMSBOSS is why cars of the 70s and 80s were crap. The industry was trying to survive oil embargoes, foreign competition, and most of all, out of control, asinine and unprecedented government interference in the automotive industry.



BTW the 70 is a rare " split bumper" option and is pretty rare on a legit Z28.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I will admit to being a Glass Half Full human life form, but one of the things I miss most about retirement was all the stimulating and interesting discussions one gets at work. Since I was lucky to work with some of the same folks for years, most of the time we respected others thoughts and one often was surprised at what we learned. Blacksheep brought up the nutty 70s and 80s, but living through that period, the bulk of the changes came from pressure from the Insurance Industry, and in retrospect those ugly bumpers, 3 point belts, etc. simply started a long standing trend towards safer cars. Ugly back then, but I know I appreciate the safety changes that were motivated over the years through pressure to make cars safer ---- definitely needed as 150 mph machines were common even with econoboxes. We now have 4 wheel discs on about everything, ABS, stability management, unique crumple zones, rollover protection, etc. thanks to regulations. Welcome to human nature where we leave things alone because folks like things the way they are, even when it may not benefit them.
I remember years back, a young man blaming President Carter for all the low horsepower, ugly designed cars of the 70s. I commented that it started way before his term in 1977, and it was an example about how we blame folks often for things that occurred years before they were in a position of power.
Many of us AARP recipients would tell you the reactions of folks during the oil embargo, if EVs were available then, would have those Energizer Bunnymobiles dominating the market. It did not happen, though, and today many are concerned about the changing market towards Battery people movers.
It was not too long ago that fuel prices again reared their ugly head and every single car Dealership wanted a slug of little, efficient cars, and we all moaned that it would end the horsepower race, Manufactureres would build less trucks and we would all be stuffing our families into tiny machines, mimicking Clowns wedging themselves in a VW Beetle.
Well, what happened in reality was that little cars, and even cars in general , have practically disappeared with trucks, SUVs and more dominating the market. Yep, all the things we were told would happen didn't and it is because the true wheels of progress move slower than projections.
So welcome today knowing EV production will take time, it will not look tomorrow like it does today ( GM and others are working very diligently on Solid State batteries likely putting Lithium in the back seat ) and if change really bothers you just take a pause and remember how few things ever turn out like we envision. The projections from Manufacturers over the years are really quite humorous and one of the best examples I was pretty involved with was the discontinuation of the Dodge Challenger. It was to leave the market in 2014, then 2016 , and this finally will be accomplished in 2023 -- nine years late, ha! We got the Hellcat, Demon, Widebody, TA, 1320 and more editions in that period and folks who got bent out of shape over the loss of said vehicle, they would have experienced years where there was nothing to worry about.

In conclusion, from an Analytical, Realistic, Logical pain in the arse ( I have been called that and more , hehe ) I actually find the push towards EVs beneficial, because like TMS noted this is quite similar to the Foreign Car invasion of the last Century, we need to keep up and yes, dominate. Since this Nation spent decades getting an Infrastructure Bill through various administrations I actually welcome the push to get America's Grid system updated. We all know that California ( Democrat dominated ) and Texas ( Republican dominated ) will whine about their antiquated systems while frankly little is being done, and population growth alone will dictate they get their little butts in gear. Glass half full Willy P things EVs may be the push to get them moving. I get accused of being pro EV, yet I am actually just pro innovation because change was what made my job selling Automotive People Movers fun. It gave me something new to talk about, relieved the boredom, and often changed the method of selling or addressing folks issues. Too many years of watching fellow carbon based life forms take forever and ever to get things switched to new and different is why I just can't get all bent out of shape about the coming automotive scene. Of course , it may help that I am fairly confident Hybrids will end up being the dominant movement with transportation, and as an F1 fan I remember years ago thinking how cool it would be for the masses to have regeneration capabities for more power and economy ---- think about how long battery packs have been part of F1.

Some say I am getting too mellow in my old age, but I simply find getting worked up about things that are not likely to occur as projected is a waste of my time. My basis for this is a 30+ year selling cars and trucks, with a 13 year gap in the middle, and it proved to me how unique this Industry is and how few ( including myself ) really know how things will shake out over the coming years --- I hope I live longer than many in my family tree as I think the coming years will be a fun ride.

 

[OX1]

Someone needs to explain to me why E15 and/or "winter" blends, are STILL OK, now that the gas price crisis is supposedly "over". It certainly helps kill ICE mileage, which doesn't hurt when you are pushing an EV agenda?

Biden will allow summertime sales of higher-ethanol gas. (Published 2022)

The White House estimated that the move would allow Americans to save 10 cents a gallon at the approximately 2,300 stations in the country that offer the blend known as E15.

www.nytimes.com

What's even funnier, was the "ban" due to emissions all these years, due to

"The Act gives the federal government, through the EPA, primary authority
for regulating the environmental impacts of gasoline use.5 For example, the
Act sets minimum national standards for conventional gasoline, as well as
requiring that certain gasoline blends formulated to reduce emissions be
used in some areas with especially poor air quality. Specifically, for certain
areas with long-standing and especially poor air quality, the federal
government requires the use of special reformulated gasoline, commonly
referred to as RFG. The amendments also require other areas to use special
gasoline blends designed to reduce summertime ozone pollution and
wintertime carbon monoxide pollution"

https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-05-421.pdf

but our NEW (apparently) "analysis" , looks conveniently AOK!!!

"The EPA said its analysis shows allowing sales of the higher blend shouldn’t have a significant impact on air quality."

EPA allows gasoline with higher ethanol blend during summer

Fuel stations throughout the country will be able to sell gasoline blended with 15% ethanol during the summer under an emergency waiver issued by the Environmental Protection Agency. The move announced Friday could reduce prices at the pump and boost demand for the Midwest-based ethanol...

apnews.com

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Heck, I know the farmers in the Midwest are pleased as pushing for E-15 has been going on for a long time. The production of Ethanol is a major economic force in Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois and other States, so some folks are super pleased , whereas , of course others aren't.

I know some of my friends are more concerned with getting Ethanol standards for E-85, as they are racing using it, but the percentages can vary quite a bit.

 

[EF1]

Don't forget that diverting crops from the food supply chain to ethanol production has increased everyone's grocery bills.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Don’t forget that here in the Midwest farmers were paid Not To Grow Crops just a few years back. At first farmers were simply given a check when they simply let a field set for a year. Then we paid them to grow and plow under crops. later a recovery crop was mandated. Now fields are producing with crops going to alcohol production as well as feeding the world. Market prices are up along with costs to bring crops to market down. Farmers in our area deliver to the alcohol plant on the other side of town. Yea, they are happy. The alleged food shortage is not very apparent here at home. Prosperous farmers expanding their operations, modernizing their operations and building new home is the daily grind here in the Midwest. The glass is not half refill, it’s over flowing.
If you are going to biznitch and point out failures, you need to chew on a few of the successes or someone may thing you are a tin foil hat wearing sour puss.

 

[Hack]

No idea what will happen in the future, but I feel that the second localized peak of automobiles has recently passed (I would say ~1970 was the first). I prefer port injection over DI or combo PI/DI. I like iron sleeves over PTWA bores. Cubic inches are a more reliable method to make power in the long term vs. small turbo engines. There's currently a lot of push back on EVs, because batteries just aren't good enough yet. Well, plus the materials required for batteries aren't even available to make enough EVs for every household to have a couple.

I do agree with some of the comments - EVs are like a very heavy tax on low income people. You can't charge an EV if you live in an apartment building. So your vehicle choices become more limited or even nonexistent at some future date.

I'm still hopeful that as people realize the consequences of the proposed changes, the laws will be altered until there are significant improvements in technology.

Really I feel a lot of the regs should be rolled back to where they were in the 1990s. Common sense stuff without causing low income people to have to sacrifice too much standard of living.