Captdistraction's ST2/GTR build thread Build Thread

[captdistraction]

Quick update: did one more test at Whp-West track and all was well.

Went to Mondo track this weekend, not so well. Bringing the car back, but motor #4 is coming out. More details soon but keeping chin up and wallet open. Car was fast before it failed.


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[VoodooBoss]

Well that's a bummer. Hoping it's nothing major.

 

[captdistraction]

Motor is trashed.

Not as bad as my credit card is about to be. Will persevere. Details to come soon.


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[Fabman]

Quick update: did one more test at Whp-West track and all was well.

Went to Mondo track this weekend, not so well. Bringing the car back, but motor #4 is coming out. More details soon but keeping chin up and wallet open. Car was fast before it failed.


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That totally blows.....having been through 4 motors myself I can totally feel your pain.
Your pics on the other hand were awesome!

 

[302 Hi Pro]

This thread has been a good read and it was great to see you finally made it to your first track day. After all the ups and downs it was just great to see you and the car back on the track again.

After scrolling down with the story I was sorry to learn it ended like that. I watched the video and thought the soundtrack was awesome so I was kinda surprised/bummed when I read that happened.

I hope you find something good as you weigh your options.

All the best,
302 Hi Pro

 

[superhero]

Motor is trashed.

Not as bad as my credit card is about to be. Will persevere. Details to come soon.


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Time to go with https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A50SC

O man that sucks. Did you loose oil pressure?
With 3 engines behind you and several builders. Its time to spend the money that you don't have the safe way. chit you owe it to yourself!
Keep the family posted.
I know this dosen't help but I dig your car.

 

[captdistraction]

Long warning (taken from a Facebook note I wrote to help explain where I am):

How to move forward with the #50 Racecar
Chris Wynne· Wednesday, November 30, 2016
13 Reads

(Sell it and give up, duh, it’s what the car gods demand)

This last weekend (Thanksgiving 2016) I took my newly built S197 racecar out on track for its first race weekend. The car had a couple test weekends under its belt and was ready to go. Assured of that readiness we had a rental driver as well in the car for street groups. Double-duty on the vehicle only caused the most minor of issues. However, during a street session the second day, the engine failed down the main straight of the course, the main cause being a catastrophic shattering of the oil pump gears which in turn caused the top end to score itself into oblivion (along with having an exhaust camshaft literally shear its way out of its cam cap retainers). Obviously racing comes with budgets, but now I hadn’t planned on needing a motor so soon after what was my 3rd rebuild (or 4th 5.0 engine setup, for those counting the original OEM one, and 5th given my S550 daily driver).

A Brief history on the car:

• Bought in 2010, immediately ran as many road course events as possible (Ford Motor Company didn’t enjoy this as much as I did)
• In June 2012, lost the OEM motor at Spring Mountain raceway due to severe detonation and failure of an exhaust valve (seat pressure plus high rev instability along with detonation made for a mess)
• Contacted a company called MMR to rebuild the motor. In late 2012/early 2013 the motor was delivered and installed -The new MMR motor spun a rod bearing shortly after, they took it back and repaired it a few weeks later
• Ran the motor for another 2 years (now setup #3) though it had issues with low oil pressure and bad oil control/consumption. Decided in 2014 to convert the car to a racecar, and began the teardown. The scored cams/heads had never been replaced after the previous rod bearing incident, which was the major contributor along with scored cylinder walls for the low oil pressure and tired performance.
• Late 2014 -Discussed the repeated issues I had with MMR and worked out a deal to do a fully fresh rebuild. That motor was delivered in late 2015 after a long wait
• Mid 2016 - The new motor (#4) immediately had an issue with the MMR billet oil pump. Chain rattle, and I didn’t have an oil pressure gauge hooked up during break in to measure, but we believe the pressure was low. Swapping in a factory pump resolved that issue, MMR took back their billet pump and eventually sent another one.
• Now: I hadn’t planned an install of the pump until the next racing season break, 2 events down with no issues on the motor, it ran flawlessly (outside the self-loosening fastener here or there). However at the last event the motor failed spectacularly. Fracturing of the OPG’s which is somewhat common on these gears and why billet replacements are abundant.

About the coyote motor
The coyote is a motor derived from Ford’s modular motor platform. It comes with several variations (from Ford/Ford Performance) and in two major generations:

Generation 1: S197 Mustang and 11+ F150

Coyote: Standard GT motor, redline 6750, 412HP. Cast pistons/rods, forged crankshaft. All aluminum.

Boss 302 – Road Runner:7500RPM redline, 440HP. CNC’ed heads with stainless sodium-filled valves, forged Mahle pistons and forged rods. New short runner intake manifold and revised camshafts (12mm lift, 263 duration). Increased rate valve springs for more seat pressure and better valvetrain stability at higher engine speeds

Aluminator: 11:1 / 9:1 variants. 420HP. Forged Mahle pistons, forged rods, GT heads and cams, however upgraded boss 302 valve springs. Designed as a crate motor for high HP applications. 7500 redline, 6750rpm peak power output.

Aluminator XS/Cobrajet: 11:1. 500HP at 7500RPM. Boss CNC heads with new Cobrajet Intake manifold, larger cams derived from boss program (290 duration, 13mm lift). Other features from aluminator to make the ultimate high HP crate engine from Ford Performance.

Generation 2: (ford detail: https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/PDFS/FPP_Gen_2_Coyote_Technical_Reference_2-16.pdf ) S550 Mustang/ aluminum F150

Coyote: Standard GT motor, redline 6750, 435HP. Uses Boss improved valve springs, larger valves (.8mm increase). Camshafts 13mm lift, 263 duration. Improved head castings flow as much as previous boss castings. Cast piston, but uses forged boss 302 rods. IMRC system on intake, new mid-lock intake phasers

Aluminator: mahle forged pistons, gen2 GT heads. New aluminator variant in both 11:1 and 9:1 versions of the gen2 coyote. XS version coming soon.

Voodoo: 520HP, over 8k redline. New flat plane crank mated to revised block that has a 5.2L displacement. Block features spray-bore plasma transfer arc liners (versus pressed in iron ductile liners). New CNC cylinder heads with revised geometry and new camshafts. Most radical variant of the Coyote platform, yet shares overall packaging and many external parts.

Considerations

The failures of the motors follow a common theme: oil control is difficult in the coyote motors and continues to be a challenge. Motor 1 was lost due to exceeding mechanical limits along with overly aggressive tuning, Motor 2/3 were lost from the rod bearing incident and Motor 4 shattered an oil pump after I was timid to reinstall the MMR gears after previous bad experiences.
Firstly, it would be easy to give up. I’ve had 4 motors in this car, and nothing but constant failure and sadness. Financially drained, in retrospect, a S197 Boss 302S or even a used R would have been a cheaper option. Hindsight is 20/20 however, and I enjoy the sport, the car felt incredibly rewarding to drive when it ran (and the #15 Multimatic car’s IMSA campaign always captured my imagination) so giving up isn’t for me.

These are the factors for moving forward: Reliability Budget Competitiveness

Reliability: Custom builds haven’t had that. Ultimately it was my fault the factory oil pump gears were in the car at time of failure, but they were because the MMR gears had had issues. After the Rod Bearing spun in 2013, Every single time I started the car I wondered if it would be the last time that motor started. That’s not a good feeling to have.

To be reliable, the motor needs a few things:

1. A solid foundation in the short block. I don’t necessarily need forged pistons, however quality build control and standards.
2. Billet oil pump gears and timing chain sprocket
3. Quality oiling system: good road race pan, and either an accusump or dry sump system ($$$$$)

Budget: To be within budget I can only afford to throw $7,000 at this problem and get back to racing immediately. This would eliminate previous budget for a trailer and would force me to borrow trailers or seek additional financing (and increasing overall debt which is not of interest at this time).

Competitiveness ST2 in NASA (and similar classes like GTR/PS0 with Proautosports) require no better than 8:1 power/weight ratio. For every HP, there needs to be 8 pounds (with some modifiers that fluctuate but overall guideline is to land somewhere around that)

A 6750RPM setup will have its challenges, additional gear shifts will be required throughout the course (or changing of the gearing to pull down to 3.31, something Vorshlag had done in the past to great success on their road course car)
A 7500 RPM setup will match my current performance levels, but must have the upgraded valve springs. This is admittedly more ideal, but it is more difficult from an engineering perspective and thus costs more.

The current motor was likely on the hot side of things from a power output, which gives me wiggle room to reduce power without falling out of the ability to compete with a competent driver (as soon as we find one to put in the car, or lots of seat time for the current idiot at the wheel).

The Options
1 Cheap/reliable: Gen 2 Coyote long block M-6006-M50A ($5200) + Gen 1 Boss Cams ($360) + Billet OPG ($400) + Gen 1 Timing System ($430) + 3QT EPC Accusump ($500) + $500 misc. costs. Total: $6,890 No retuning required. Dyno verification but otherwise power output should be like last motor.

2 The most cheap/questionable: Have MMR rebuild existing short block (should it have survived) ($1500) + New Gen2 heads/Boss heads ($1500-2200) + new OPG ($400) + New lifters/followers ($700) + Gen 1 Boss Cams ($360) + reuse existing timing gear + 3QT EPC Accusump ($500) + $500 misc. costs. Total: $6,160 (estimated) The costs all but rule this out from a risk to reward ratio. Costs could be less due to existing relationship with company.

3 Less cheap/unknown Power by the hour Gen2/1 hybrid longblock. Same as option 1 above, but completely assembled by someone other than me. $7,500 total costs (with 3qt accusump)

4 even less cheap/Drew reliable (a good thing): Aluminator short block ($5100) + New Gen2 heads/Boss heads ($1500-2200) + new OPG ($400) + New lifters/followers ($700) + Gen 1 Boss Cams ($360) + reuse existing timing gear + 3QT EPC Accusump ($500) + $500 misc. costs. Total $9,760

5 expensive/super reliable Aluminator Crate $10,750 Boss Crate (if found) $8750 + billet opg ($400) + accusump ($500), etc.

6 expensive / ??? Used motors / Roush/Yates 302R leftovers (9k) / junkyard pulls + modifications to meet requirements.


Before I decide to move forward, I’m going to pull the motor from the car and look at what I have, what I can sell, how much debt I am willing to take on, and if anything is salvageable.

Comments welcome.

 

[captdistraction]

 

[VoodooBoss]

Wow I didn't know the forum software was capable of supporting such a long post. ;D

I vote for option 1. This will allow you to make upgrades as your budget improves. Good luck!

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Would this be a viable option$. This eBay motors offering is from Gary Yoemans Ford dealership in Florida. Seemed like a great deal for $6,600 USD.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-FORD-RACING-5-0L-32V-COYOTE-435-HP-MUSTANG-CRATE-ENGINE-M-6007-M50A-NEW-/172426649826?hash=item28256de0e2:g:wecAAOSwezVWzw6V&vxp=mtr

302 Hi Pro

 

[captdistraction]

It is, but comes with a lot of stuff I don't need, the m6006-m50a is the same thing minus the intake, etc for $1500 less


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[captdistraction]

Well it's all out. The passenger head appears salveable but two cam caps have scratches (none on the cap bases.)

Anyone have an idea on how hard it would be to swap caps with ones good from the other head and have a machine shop verify measurements/tolerance and a line hone done on it?



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[steeda5]

Chris,
I have a local engine builder that you can run that by. His shop is in Tempe over by Tempe market place. Steve has built me a couple of 2v Mod motors that have held up well. Ill text you his number.
Brian

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Plus a good cleaning for metal shavings.

2HP

 

[captdistraction]

I pulled the engine apart yesterday. Most everything appeared to survived.

Hadn't helped me make a decision at all as if I want to run this shortblock i would need to clean, re-ring and replace bearings and that's easily off to the races at $2k and then some.

I'm going to do a more detailed cost analysis tomorrow and hopefully that yields a clear leader in direction.

Some pics:









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[steveespo]

Quick pass with ball hones, a trip through a sonic wash tank, new rings and bearings and that block will be fine. Crank journal look good? Of course a new Ford Performance CJ oil pump is in order, but the rest of the parts should be fine. I think there are shops that align bore and hone the heads but new heads might be cheaper, 2015-17 GT heads are $950 a set +$500 core charges. Or you could find another set of ultra rare sodium filled exhaust valve Boss 302 heads ;D ;D
Steve

 

[captdistraction]

I did a full cost analysis:

The options for rebuild (including unobtainium heads or otherwise) ranged from $4995-6168

The options for Gen2 longblock were $7000-7280 (modified to go to gen1)

The options for aluminator shortblock + boss or gen2 heads ranged from $7680-9047

All these include replacing lots of things like oil coolers, adding accusump and reusing what hardware I have (right down to putting fresh plugs/oil in and all the little hardware gotchas).

Interesting the ballpark between 5-9k isn't the big spread I thought it would be. If I were able to get about $1700 worth of sales out of my existing engine hardware (and I'm pretty good at flipping car parts), the spread between the new build and rebuild options narrows and becomes even more interesting. I think if I find some buyers that there's no way I'd lean to rebuild, that I'd go after an aluminator based setup.

Nothing's stuck out at me as the way to go, but some great food for thought.

 

[JScheier]

Coming from a GTS2 racer....

What is the absolute minimum weight you can get your car to in ST2? Can you work backwards from that and figure where you need to be to hit 8:1? If so, does that HP number require cams, tunes, etc?

The reason I'm asking, in GTS, which is also a P/W class, many of the competitors go nuts with cams, tunes, bores, etc, and then add weight to ballast up the the P/W ratio as required by class. I went the opposite way, got the car as light as I possibly could (with driver) and de-tuned the car to run less HP. The de-tune keeps the motor safe with low wear, etc. The lighter total weight results in lower consumables (tires, brakes, rotors). In a P/W class, the car still hits the required ratio for GTS2, and is highly competitive. As an added bonus, my R7s last the 45 minute races in slightly better condition than those of my heavier competitors.

Just a thought.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Coming from a GTS2 racer....

What is the absolute minimum weight you can get your car to in ST2? Can you work backwards from that and figure where you need to be to hit 8:1? If so, does that HP number require cams, tunes, etc?

The reason I'm asking, in GTS, which is also a P/W class, many of the competitors go nuts with cams, tunes, bores, etc, and then add weight to ballast up the the P/W ratio as required by class. I went the opposite way, got the car as light as I possibly could (with driver) and de-tuned the car to run less HP. The de-tune keeps the motor safe with low wear, etc. The lighter total weight results in lower consumables (tires, brakes, rotors). In a P/W class, the car still hits the required ratio for GTS2, and is highly competitive. As an added bonus, my R7s last the 45 minute races in slightly better condition than those of my heavier competitors.

Just a thought.

+1 for this recommendation.

For the "ST" classes we switched to "average" HP this year, the calculation intended to help cars with more natural "peaky" HP curves and discourage people from bringing in cars with "throttle blade closure" tunes that enable a car with a really powerful engine to be de-tuned to make a class-maximum HP figure for 70-80% of their rev range.

There are P:W credits of 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3 for being 3300-3399lbs, 3400-3499lbs, and 3500-3599lbs, respectively.

My car lands pretty squarely in the 3400ish range with fuel and driver, I'm guessing Chris' car will be in the high 3300s to low 3400s once we can get it on the scales. It's possible to lighten the cars further still, but now we are starting to talk about expensive carbon fiber panels or lexan parts.

The car could probably run close to 435 average HP (guessing around 450rwhp peak) and 3400 lbs and be right on the money for an "adjusted" 8.0:1 range.
If he is lighter (in that 3300lb range) he will lose 0.1 credit and have to either ballast up into the 3400 range or cap power somewhere in the 417 average range (guessing 430whp peak).

 

[captdistraction]

All the options land with that power/weight ratio in mind. Each of the options are within 5 HP of each other, as all the variance is in hardware associated with survivability. the MMR motor had tons of high end hardware, for example, but limited via production camshafts. The only difference between my options is how much of that is important to me since any are going to be real healthy setups on the car (and an easy upgrade path should more power ever be needed).

The power adding items on this setup is in the headers, open-ish exhaust, and intake manifold, and mostly to create a powerband that is friendly to the rules and setup of the car (tire diameters, rear differential ratio, gear ratios, etc).

One idea that keeps coming up is why not go the "big red" route and lower the max revs to 6750 and re-engineer the car around that and a heavier torque setup. I think the rules going forward aren't going to favor, and anything I can do to reduce the amount of footwork/shifting helps realize better laptimes.

I started parting the existing motor out today, I think in the end it will net me the difference between buying new and rebuilding, despite the overall health of the existing shortblock being surprisingly good. Hopefully someone will pick it up and make good use of it (waste not), but it is easier for me to consider options that are all new, for both peace of mind and proven reliability.