Coyote - oil flow on road course with sticky rubber?

Discussion in 'GT350 and S550 Technical Forum' started by spiller, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. spiller

    spiller TMO Intermediate

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    This is my first post on these forums. I've spent a bit of time on M6G but I'm a road course addict so naturally I've made my way over here.

    As the title suggests, my question relates to tracking a Coyote equipped S550 with sticky rubber on the stock oil pan. Is there any concern with oil starvation? My 2017 GTPP is stock aside from a variety of suspension upgrades, however I will be running 18 inch wheels with r-compound tires at the track. Tires are Advan A050 which are grippier than Nitto NT01 to give you an idea. I've tracked a lot of makes and models over the years and understand that the use of r-compounds can often lead to oiling issues. I'd like to know if this applies to the Coyote.

    So track goers, do I have anything to worry about? If so, what is the best course of action? I understand Moroso, Canton and the OEM GT350 sump to be three options. Im just not sure if they're necessary.

    Cheers
     
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  2. VoodooBoss

    VoodooBoss Rick Moderator

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    Naturally. Welcome to TMO.

    @steveespo might have a good answer for you.
     
  3. ArizonaBOSS

    ArizonaBOSS Because racecar. Moderator

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  4. steveespo

    steveespo Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child Moderator

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    I ran my 2016 GT PP car with Ford Performance Track Pack suspension and 18x10" wheels with 295/40-18 R7s. Car pulled consistent sustained 1.2g laterally and -1.25g under braking. With the stock pan and Ford Performance Air/oil separators I did not see oil pressure drop but did experience oil being pumped up the passenger side head and into the catch can. At Indianapolis this became evident when the intake sucked the oil in. I believe that a different pan with better baffling might prevent this. I have also heard that GT350R models have a different right hand valve cover to help with this problem. Problem is, the service parts book shows the same valve cover for all Coyote and Voodoo engines. So to answer, I would make the effort and change to the Moroso aluminum pan. The GT350 pan is nice but involves changing the oil pan, oil pump and pick up, which involves opening the front cover and removing the Damper and timing chains. Not a project I would want to do with the motor in the car. Steve


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  5. spiller

    spiller TMO Intermediate

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    Thanks!

    @ArizonaBOSS looks like a nice Boss race car you have there. What has been your experience with the Coyote in race situations?

    @steveespo thanks for sharing your experience. Was this a once off experience with the catch can filling up or did it happen on a number of different occasions? Not to sound like a noob, but what happened when the intake sucked oil in? I cannot imagine this would be good for the motor! Do you think your issues had anything to do with the type of circuit you were participating on - e.g. any high-g banked corners etc? Regarding your catch cans, I assume you have driver and passenger side fitted - I currently only have the passenger side fitted. Did you see much collection in the driver's side can following sessions at the track? I'm wondering if it's worth adding the driver's side.

    I did not realise the 350 pan requires all those additional changes. With that in mind I would probably go with a Moroso steel pan (the thought of an alloy sump worries me in case of an off track excursion, even though it's pretty well protected). The sump is an easy enough upgrade, my only concern is the car is still under warranty for the next 3 years and not that a sump should void a warranty, but it could result in Ford asking some questions...
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  6. steveespo

    steveespo Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child Moderator

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    I actually mis stated it was the drivers side. When the catch can was over full it sucked oil into the intake tube and into the engine causing a big puff of blue smoke on the grid. I thought I had killed the engine. We drained it out, cleaned the air filter and intake tube and it was fine. I check the catch cans after every session now. Sometimes see a little, sometimes none but you should get both and check them frequently at the track. On the street, they stay dry all the time.
    Steve
     
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  7. spiller

    spiller TMO Intermediate

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    Thanks, I will add another catch can. My main concern was oil starvation so perhaps I will just keep an eye on the cans and go from there. I am running the same suspension as you with BMR handling springs instead of the progressive ford springs, similar tire and wheel sizes too. I'm very surprised that there isn't a lot of info online about this topic, given the S550 has been around for a few years now and lots of people hitting the road course.
     
  8. wildcatgoal

    wildcatgoal TMO Intermediate

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    I recently did Charlotte's ROVAL achieving apparently up to 1.35Gs on the bank (turn 3 of the typical left-hand oval NASCAR track). If the oil pressure gauge on my dash is remotely accurate, I did not notice oil pressure issues on the banks at 110-130mph depending on how big my nuts felt at the time. My FRPP catch cans (D and P sides) were not unusually full, typical of a track day. FWIW, I use 5w40 Liqui Moly. I'm on Steeda Dual Rate Comp springs, etc., and was on Nitto NT01s.
     
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  9. ArizonaBOSS

    ArizonaBOSS Because racecar. Moderator

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    @spiller I didn't want to chime in since my car is an S197, but it is definitely a Coyote.

    Anyways I run a Moroso 10-quart pan, filled with 12 quarts (due to large oil cooler and lines), and a Watson-Racing style breather can instead of a PCV system. Works great and doesn't choke out on pressure under race conditions.
     
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  10. spiller

    spiller TMO Intermediate

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    This is interesting. You would think the high banked turns would be a true test for the oiling system. Just to play devils advocate though...does the ROVAL have any really heavy braking zones? I'm led to believe repeated heavy braking zones do a lot of "damage" in this instance. My other query is around the accuracy of the factory S550 oil pressure sensor. Is it able to accurately measure and relay information relating to very short lived drops in oil pressure? The kind that's usually seen from sloshing in the pan? I would imagine the sensor would be triggered more so whern there is a prolonged drop in pressure without a return to normal pressure (i.e. from a loss of a large volume of oil or something similar). Of course, none of that is based off any real knowledge, I'm just throwing the possibility out there for discussion.

    All good! Moroso seems to be the weapon of choice. Did you go alloy or steel? Curious as to weight difference, supposedly better cooling with alloy also.
     
  11. 2012-Boss

    2012-Boss TMO Addict

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    I prefer the alloy Moroso pan. I would not run extra oil in the S550. Some of us did / do that with the S197 road runner and coyote engines with the stock oil pan. But, based on SteveEspo's experience, we suspect running above the typical full line in the S550 might contribute to oil in the catch can / breather.
     
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  12. ArizonaBOSS

    ArizonaBOSS Because racecar. Moderator

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    @spiller I went with the steel pan because of the noticeably lower price, and also if it somehow got punctured at the track, there is a possibility of welding it on-site. Weight not so much a big deal considering how low down it is.
     
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  13. ArizonaBOSS

    ArizonaBOSS Because racecar. Moderator

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    One other thing to note with the Moroso pans is to make sure you use Loctite (not thread-sealing tape) on the access port plugs, if you are not installing sensors. They WILL leak if you do not seal them properly.
     
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  14. spiller

    spiller TMO Intermediate

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    I assume you are meaning not to run extra oil in the S550 if using the stock pan?

    Thanks for the tip. I would be running the factory sensors in the pan, in which case would you still recommend using loctite? Red or blue?
     
  15. ArizonaBOSS

    ArizonaBOSS Because racecar. Moderator

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    OK I suppose I lied, I put the yellow thread-sealing tape on the oil level sensor; suggest loctite red or "gasoila" on the plugs.
     
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  16. spiller

    spiller TMO Intermediate

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  17. 2012-Boss

    2012-Boss TMO Addict

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    Yes, I am recommemding not to run extra oil in the S550 with the stock pan. I have seen where a S550 car that was overfull fill the catch can and blowby into the intake. When we drained the car (at the track, same day, same car) and refilled it to the normal level the catch can ran clean.

    I bring this up because I, and a number of others on the board, routinely ran our 2011 - 2014 car about a quart past full with the stock pan with no catch can issues. I'm not going to get into a big discussion of why we dumped an extra quart in, but let's just say it was based on good / well informed advice.
     
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  18. spiller

    spiller TMO Intermediate

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    @2012-Boss fair enough! Thanks for the clarification.
     
  19. steveespo

    steveespo Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child Moderator

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    My car.
     
  20. steveespo

    steveespo Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child Moderator

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    That is the GT350 oil pan, requires the pickup and pump as well. Ford Performance sells it as a kit M-6675-M52. To use it you must change pump. And yes if you change oil pan and there is an engine failure that involves lubrication they will look to the oil pan to possibly deny coverage.
     

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