Limp Mode / P061C. Looking for advice / help

[Berol]

Some background : Car is a 2012, #193. Powertrain is stock, running the Red Key with 93 octane.

Car ran great at Sebring at the end of May, but I lost the clutch and the carrier bearing on the stock driveshaft.

Installed a McLeod RXT, with lightened steel flywheel, FRPP Competition Pulse ring, FRPP one piece driveshaft and installed the post-TSB crank senor. I had never had problems with the OEM sensor so I never had the TSB done. After install I did the crank sensor relearn with my SCT x4. (Car isn't tuned, I just use it as a code reader).

Went to the track (Roebling Road) in August. Car ran fine in the first session. End of the second session it threw the wrench light and went into limp mode. Turning the car off, and back on resulted in limp mode being gone and no code. Ran 2 laps in session 3, car went into limp mode and threw P061C - internal control module RPM performance. Did a crank sensor relearn and car ran fine for session 4, and for one session on Sunday.

Back at Roebling today. No track miles and limited street miles since August. Ran 1 session fine. Went into limp mode (no code) in session 2. Pulled the crank sensor, it didn't need cleaned at all. Put it back in, did the relearn. Ran session 3. Car ran fine, even pushing it to 7500 RPM on shifts. Ran session 4, car ran great again, except it went into limp mode while heel-toeing from 5th to 4th during the cooldown lap.

I'm at a loss here. I'm sure it will happen again tomorrow and I'll lose quite a bit of track time. Also don't know what to do to fix the issue in the long run. Checked the tightness of the wiring for the cam sensors and they were tight. About the only thing I can think of is maybe I need the 2013 sensors along with the PRS wiring harness, but I'm not really excited about throwing $1k at a problem like this unless I know it will fix the problem. Never experienced limp mode once on this car until after all the repairs in June.

Feel free to move this thread, but it seemed both powertrain and electrical related so I put it here.

Thanks in advance!

 

[VoodooBoss]

I don't have any idea where to do from here but I'd install the upgraded connectors like @ArizonaBOSS did on his car before doing the PRS harness. When my engine was replaced I was happy to see the 2013 connectors on my new motor. I have not thrown any codes since I had my clutch replaced 2 1/2 years ago. Good luck.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Tough to say what to do next. My failures were clearly VCT solenoid codes and going to the 2013 solenoids and pigtails cured that.

Here is some further description of your code as well as some possible causes:

http://www.engine-codes.com/codes.php?code=p061c_ford

- Faulty Crankshaft Position Sensor (CKP)
- CKP harness is open or shorted
- CKP circuit poor electrical connection
- Faulty Camshaft Position Sensor (CMP)
- CMP harness is open or shorted
- CMP circuit poor electrical connection
- Faulty Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

Aside from looking at the VCT sensors/wiring, did you check the cam position sensors and their wiring condition? There is one for each cam in the back of each head. If it's not a sensor itself or a wiring pigtail that you can repair/replace, a whole harness replacement might be the next step. That would not be fun.

You might try getting one of each CMP sensor and replacing them to see if the issue goes away. Plus, it never hurts to have spares. Maybe try same thing with CKP as well. Probably $90 to get all those from Tousley. You could also check wiring continuity by testing the resistance of the wiring harness pigtail pinouts back to the "mega connector" that plugs into the PCM. Might need some long probes for your multimeter for that. Infinite resistance indicates a break in the wire.

Also a "freebie" check is to have a friend jiggle the harness at various points while the car is running to see if this triggers a fault. Can't say this will work for certain but it's worth a shot. Watch your hands around the belts and hot headers--this could be done with a stick or prod or something instead.


Are there any other codes being triggered or stored?

 

[Flyboygsxr]

Why not take it to a dealer and have them do the relearn? It's an option

 

[TMSBOSS]

If have bad the same issues and code.

I replaced the crank sensor and did the relearn. Relearn is a must do item with this code. A new crank sensor was under $30.00.

Took a Ford mechanic and his laptop to the track last time out. Two days at Road America and no codes.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Berol:

If I read this right, it all started after the clutch replacement. I had something very similar happen to me after my clutch replacement and as it turned out the left side Camshaft Position Sensor located at the back of the cylinder head was damaged when the transmission was out. The engine was not properly supported and it leaned back against the firewall which damaged the sensor connector.

Checking this sensor was also a recommendation by ArizonaBoss, see above. I would start there and check both sensors and the wiring connectors.

It didn't take much for the engine to lean back just enough to damage the connector, meaning it wasn't an epic event where the was jammed against the firewall, it just touched the firewall on the transmission reinstall process.

Good luck and keep us posted,
Dave
302 Hi Pro

 

[patrickshelby]

Can a SCTx4 do the neutral profile relearn?
I thought only a Ford IDS device could do this...

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Can a SCTx4 do the neutral profile relearn?
I thought only a Ford IDS device could do this...

The latest version SCT tuner has the relearn function built-in.

 

[patrickshelby]

The latest version SCT tuner has the relearn function built-in.

If it really works ( ) it's great!

 

[Berol]

Mobile data at the track is nearly non-existant so while I read this and screwed around with the car all day, I'm just replying now.

I don't have any idea where to do from here but I'd install the upgraded connectors like @ArizonaBOSS did on his car before doing the PRS harness.

Thanks Rick.

Aside from looking at the VCT sensors/wiring, did you check the cam position sensors and their wiring condition? There is one for each cam in the back of each head. If it's not a sensor itself or a wiring pigtail that you can repair/replace, a whole harness replacement might be the next step. That would not be fun.

You might try getting one of each CMP sensor and replacing them to see if the issue goes away. Plus, it never hurts to have spares. Maybe try same thing with CKP as well. Probably $90 to get all those from Tousley. You could also check wiring continuity by testing the resistance of the wiring harness pigtail pinouts back to the "mega connector" that plugs into the PCM. Might need some long probes for your multimeter for that. Infinite resistance indicates a break in the wire.


Are there any other codes being triggered or stored?

Thanks Drew. No codes are being triggered or stored. It shows the wrench and goes into limp mode. It's only shown P061C once. All other limp modes were associated with no codes. When I get into limp mode I would say that I end up traveling at least a mile, if not two, stuck in limp mode to get to the paddock. Not really really far, but far enough I'm surprised it's not associated itself with codes more frequently.

Didn't even bother getting on track today. Slept in and looked at the sensors you mentioned. Unplugged the 4 cam sensors at the front, and the 4 at the back. No obvious damage the wiring or to the plugs, or what I can see of the sensors without removing them.

I think that I am going to take your advice and order the 4 sensors for the back of the heads. Is BR3Z-6B288-A what I'm looking for on the intake side, 9L8Z-6B288-B on the exhaust side? Same sensors for left and right side heads? If that replacement doesn't do the trick, I'm going to try the wiring harness resistance check trick.

Just out of curiosity of price, I couldn't find the sensors on the front side of the head on Tasca's parts website. I'm guessing they are alot more involved with removal/reinstall too, with removal of the cam covers as a minimum, maybe more. Maybe I'll consider those later too.

Berol:

If I read this right, it all started after the clutch replacement. I had something very similar happen to me after my clutch replacement and as it turned out the left side Camshaft Position Sensor located at the back of the cylinder head was damaged when the transmission was out. The engine was not properly supported and it leaned back against the firewall which damaged the sensor connector.

Checking this sensor was also a recommendation by ArizonaBoss, see above. I would start there and check both sensors and the wiring connectors.

It didn't take much for the engine to lean back just enough to damage the connector, meaning it wasn't an epic event where the was jammed against the firewall, it just touched the firewall on the transmission reinstall process.

Good luck and keep us posted,
Dave
302 Hi Pro

Yes, the bad parts of this all started immediately after clutch replacement.
Interesting. I could definitely see that happening. We didn't force it, but we didn't exactly finesse the transmission back into place...

Was your sensor visibly damaged? Or did you just replace them and it fixed it? I can't see any physical damage on mine, but I haven't pulled them yet either.

Why not take it to a dealer and have them do the relearn? It's an option

I might. Actually it might be what I do after I start replacing sensors. I'm just frustrated with dealers here. They see a Boss 302 rolling out of a trailer with slicks, no interior, with a roll bar and harnesses and they want to 'look at it to see what's wrong.' Vice just them doing exactly what I ask / specifically pay for. Like resetting advancetrac or a CKP relearn...

Can a SCTx4 do the neutral profile relearn?
I thought only a Ford IDS device could do this...

It does. It's the only reason I bought it over the x3.


And for a few general comments for the group:
What is the sensor on the passenger side head, all the way on the back side, just above, and slightly more inboard than the intake cam sensor? Its very simple, only has 1 wire going in. I'm guessing CHT sensor, with my second guess being that it is the knock sensor.

Anyways, I can't find one on the left hand side, and the one on the right hand side is SUPER loose. By that I mean, the white plastic clip that holds two wiring harness clips is really loose. I don't see any real damage to the wiring itself, or the 'sensor' it goes to. I don't really think that is causing my issues, because its just a plastic clip. But after what Dave said, I'm wondering if it got that loose because it got pushed around and into the firewall during clutch swap. It honestly looks like it would hit the firewall before the cam sensor because of it's location. If it is the CHT sensor, I could see how maybe now it's occasionally sending an erratic signal for CHT, because perhaps the probe side of the sensor is actually damaged too. And potentially the PCM either sees a really high CHT, or something that just doesn't make sense to it, it freaks out and then just goes into limp mode w/o codes...

If I could ask a favor, could somebody take a look at their motor and tell me how 'loose' the plastic clip is?

I like the ideas! Keep them coming.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Berol: To diagnose, you only need one of each of the CMP sensors on the back of the head (1 intake, 1 exhaust). They are interchangeable between R/L head. However if you want to have the best shot of eliminating a failed CMP, get all 4. I carry one of each as a spare (so far no issues). Those PNs match what I have for my sensors (although the exhaust is a "-A" part). Should be same stuff.

To replace the sensors/pigtails on the VCT it's a little more involved but not too difficult. You have to pull the valve cover on each side, including removing the coil packs etc. Then there are two bolts securing each VCT solenoid to the head itself. Swap up to the 2013 spec solenoids, make sure the small plunger is depressed during install, then put everything back together. The "toughest" part of the swap is cutting into the harness and soldering in the new pigtails. Not really difficult but requires precision and thought to get the wire lengths close to stock.

 

[Berol]

Thanks Drew. I'm about one click away now from ordering these sensors. Going to start with everything except the VCT solenoids.

Any idea what the third wiring plug that I see at the top of the right hand side head goes to? It only has one wire coming from the sensor, and after it connects to the pigtail, one wire goes into the huge wiring loom just near by to it.

Also forgot to mention this earlier, but did it sort of intentionally to keep confusion to a minimum. I'm on my third CKP sensor. (1. OEM pre-TSB 2. post-TSB style installed with the clutch 3. post-TSB style installed between August track event and today). I'm about 99% sure this isn't CKP or relearn related.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Any idea what the third wiring plug that I see at the top of the right hand side head goes to? It only has one wire coming from the sensor, and after it connects to the pigtail, one wire goes into the huge wiring loom just near by to it.

Can't get a good idea of what you're referring to even after looking at my engine. A picture would help.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

It is not the knock sensor(s), we have 2, and both mount in the valley of the cylinder block, under the IM. The wiring connectors come thru the rear foam block under the IM.

A CHT sensor will have a one wire lead and should be placed at the rear of the cylinder head.

302 HP

 

[Berol]

I think it is the CHT sensor. The strange thing about that is looking through the 2014 Boss 302S code list, there are several different codes for erratic or high/low CHT. I still think it might be a culpruit, just surprised that it doesn't throw a code for it, and the only code I've seen was PCM/RPM related.

Video was easier than photos. I realize I sound like an idiot. Trying to use a flashlight, phone and get it to focus must take more intelligence than I have at the moment :-\

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYT3cYSHdA

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Most likely CHT as others have mentioned. Only stuff on that side of the engine are the two cam sensors, crank sensor, and CHT.

 

[Berol]

Thanks again. Ordered 4 cam sensors and 2 CHT sensors last night for under $100. After swapping those, plus the new CKP sensor, everything on the back side of the engine is new. They should be here in a week or so, hopefully before the weekend.

I'm also hoping I find one of the sensors as the obvious culprit after actually removing it. If not, I'll start considering more invasive / expensive options.

Either way I'll keep this thread updated.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

There is only one CHT, it's on the passenger side as you have discovered. Either cancel one or have some spares--although they rarely go bad as I understand.

 

[2012-Boss]

Berol,

I had a problem with P061C code and reoccurring limp mode like you described last year. I had to replace my PCM to fix the issue. The basic causes are the crankshaft position sensor, the camshaft position sensors, open or shorts in the censor circuits, a damaged pulse ring, or a damaged PCM.

Any problems with the sensors should result in codes in addition to the P061C. If replacing your sensors do not fix your problem, I would replace the engine wiring harness and the PCM.

Ford replaced my PCM under warranty, but it took three months to get approved. Even though the PCM is not really very expensive, it is the last item Ford will look at in fixing a problem.

Unfortunately, a new PCM has no calibrations out of the box and I do not know what Ford will charge you to flash the PCM.

When Ford initially looked at my car, the IDS showed sporadic misfires on almost all cylinders. Pinpoint tests and other diagnostic tests ruled out the wiring harness and sensors with my car. That left the pulse ring and PCM. Ford used a bore scope to verify that there was no physical damage to the pulse ring and then replaced the PCM.

 

[Berol]

Thanks again to all for advice. Sensors came today. Replaced the cam sensors with my helper, saw no visible damage to any of them.



Installed the new sensors for the heck of it. 100% sure the old ones they were fine. I'll keep them as spares, and just to eliminate it was one of the many possibilities.



I know they weren't the problem because of this...Driver side exhaust cam sensor harness:


So, now I'm looking for more advice. Right now I am thinking about cutting both wires, removing the harness clip. Then moving it into the house and soldering about 6" of extra wire onto each wire. Shrink wrap the new joints. Move this 'longer' harness clip back out to the garage and solder it into the car's wiring. Shrink wrap those joints. Then wrap it all up, finishing with heat resistant thermal tape.

My concern with just cutting and re-soldering is that there just isn't enough good wire between the abrasion and the harness clip, especially with the relatively cramped quarters I'm working with. I suck at soldering, so extra room is needed.

The only other alternative would be if these wires can pull free from the clip. Then I could cut the wires, solder in new pins, and reseat. It doesn't look like it, but is this possible?

Oh, and the really 'loose' wiring harness I found wasn't the CHT probe. It looks like a simple ground wire. Here's another photo for it in case it helps somebody in the future. The CHT probe is further down, looked like a bear to do with the head on the car (shop manual has you install the CHT prior to head install). Once I found the wiring abrasion I gave up on the CHT idea.

The grounding strap for this joint just goes on the same bolt as the passenger side intake cam. You can see the CHT sensor in this photo too (lower, still in the head, and unplugged).