My S197 Got crushed by a trio of M3's on trackday at Waterford Hills MI

[Mad Hatter]

Thanks for the pic!! I was feeling hurt as well....

Youre pic was the classic answer for how to make a S197 fly!!! I was injured by the funky comment with the 315's

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I did not get very far upon reading your first post and your question on how the Bimmers were blowing by you as it appeared you just needed the " Candy Store " analogy. The BMWs were running Gummi Bears all the way around and you were on 5 year old Bibendum rock candy jawbreakers!

You need some wide ass gumballs and then give your live axle a little love! Madhatter, Frankenstang and others have shown a live rear is a car to fear.

You have found the place for all your answers Grasshopper and the Trackrats of TMO are here to offer advice to their fellow Pony Pilots.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Youre pic was the classic answer for how to make a S197 fly!!! I was injured by the funky comment with the 315's

Just stop it, we ran a car on Gt2 with 315s on it, that were pretty punched put of the wheel wells. It did look funky, you guys have harnessed the power of correct offset and they look simply maasrrvelous.

 

[Mad Hatter]

truthfully, I love the look of 315's. Though I have been running the Dunlops more now in 300/680-18

 

[stevbd]

Just remember that the E92 M3 has no, as in NADA torque. That is were you can make up the time on them. Well it works ok for the V8 M3, not so much for the newer turbos.

So true @Mad Hatter. My friend sent me this video, go to 6:35 to see a little drag race off a lower rpm uphill corner between my stock 2011 and a couple of E9x M3's at a BMW day. Those M3's are beautiful but they really are gutless in the torque department. And I almost feel bad saying this, but my car even had a CEL for a misfire in this video and has 3.31 gears in the back. Heaven help those bimmers if they run into a strong running Boss.

 

[twistedneck]

Had a lot of of rivalries with M3's over the years, in time trails and later in W2W. With the Boss setup and and good race pads (Not HP+) you should be able to leave them behind. As BS-1 said, the Boss was made to beat the M3. With the better pads and concentrating on late braking and corner exit, you can leave them looking for super charger kits and AP racing brakes in no time.

Just remember that the E92 M3 has no, as in NADA torque. That is were you can make up the time on them. Well it works ok for the V8 M3, not so much for the newer turbos.

This is a big deal as of course my tires sucked but only maybe 2 or 3 times did i actually brake at the number 3 marker and it always stopped just fine.. its just the freaking noise it was like a used up russian airliner stopping with totally blown landing gear. think steering wheel heavy vibrations, but it never gave up any stopping power i just got petrified. so in the future i need to use this beast up on the brakes and the straight!!!! no fear, no mercy on the brakes.

 

[twistedneck]

Body roll is your friend...

View attachment 89755

this must be photoshopped..that rocket sled is about to shoot forward.

 

[blacksheep-1]

this must be photoshopped..that rocket sled is about to shoot forward.

Kurt Rezzatano, Pole lap at VIR about 7 years ago. I was crewing for them at the time. That car flopped all over the place but it launched off the corners like jack the rat. It never had 4 wheels on the ground.

 

[blacksheep-1]

this must be photoshopped..that rocket sled is about to shoot forward.

Nope, that was the pole run by Kurt Rezzatano at Virgina about 7 years ago, I was crewing for the team at the time.

Aquilante doubles up in PWC GTS at St. Pete

Andrew Aquilante’s double wins at the Pirelli World Challenge Grand Prix of St. Petersburg Presented by Case-It enjoyed a local flair after another dominating performance in the GTS division&…

racer.com

 

[blacksheep-1]

while we're at it... a look down memory lane. Watch the attitude of the Mustang

 

[Mad Hatter]

TMO must have at least 20 shots of those Phoenix cars on three wheels, and even some on two.

 

[blacksheep-1]

TMO must have at least 20 shots of those Phoenix cars on three wheels, and even some on two.

Those cars are still the gold standard for S197 handling.

 

[Callmejnasty94]

You are going to have to cut the shock towers, I have the jig if you want to borrow it. It is detailed in project superbeater, which you might read through when you get a moment.
I have seen S197s with 315s and they look pretty funky. These cars love soft springs and wimpy rear bars

I think s197’s look great with 315 tires as long as you have the right offset and ample front camber

 

[smallblock]

There is a TMO member Smallblock I think, who posts WHRR track videos. He is fast and I took away some ideas for being quick there. He has a well prepped 2011 GT

@twistedneck, Switch up to more aggressive 305s on 11" wide wheels, it will make a world of difference even on a stockish suspension. I just have adjustable Konis, Eibachs, and softer than stock rear sway bar. My best time at Grattan, the shocks were in their softest setting. Grattan PB: 1:23.9. @blacksheep-1 is right, these cars don't mind a fairly soft setup.

Also, your vibration under braking may actually be the steering rack. I installed the Boss 302S rack and it fixed the steering wheel shimmy under braking.

Here's a fun vid of me and a very skilled C7 Grandsport driver who is a good friend of mine. We tend to swap lead/follow just for fun. I was running out of fuel at the end of the session. PB at Waterford 1:12.1

 

[stevbd]

@blacksheep-1 those videos are fantastic I could watch them all day. Thanks for posting!

 

[Boss4Me]

@twistedneck, Switch up to more aggressive 305s on 11" wide wheels, it will make a world of difference even on a stockish suspension. I just have adjustable Konis, Eibachs, and softer than stock rear sway bar. My best time at Grattan, the shocks were in their softest setting. Grattan PB: 1:23.9. @blacksheep-1 is right, these cars don't mind a fairly soft setup.

Also, your vibration under braking may actually be the steering rack. I installed the Boss 302S rack and it fixed the steering wheel shimmy under braking.

Here's a fun vid of me and a very skilled C7 Grandsport driver who is a good friend of mine. We tend to swap lead/follow just for fun. I was running out of fuel at the end of the session. PB at Waterford 1:12.1

Thanks Smallblock for checking in. Your Waterford Hills track videos changed the way I got around that track in my Boss. 1:12 is an amazing fast lap in any street/track car.

 

[modernbeat]

The beginners setup to going fast in an S197 Boss 302.
Swap to 18x11 wheels with 315 tires. Alternatively, 19x11 on 305 tires.
Change the rear brakes to the GT500 rotors and caliper extension bracket.
Change the rear ratio to 3.55:1. If you've got a non-Boss GT, use 3.31:1 ratio and change the differential to a T2R.
Add rear lower arm relocation brackets, and optionally, lower adjustable arms.
Add camber plates (should be done with the tires).
Add an adjustable panhard bar or Watts link (also should be done with the tires).
At a minimum use the Bilsteins and lowering springs, consider swapping the springs to 450# front with a sleeve kit and 175# rear using Vorshlag parts.
Swap to the heavier, adjustable, Whiteline sway bars, particularly in the rear.
Consider deleting the oil heater in favor of an air-to-oil oil cooler.
Add a stiffer bushing to the transmission to help with miss-shifts. Either the Whiteline bushing reinforcement or the Energy Suspension shifter bushing, or both.
Add track worthy brake pads and brake cooling.

Those changes will get you -VERY- far into the performance of the S197.

A better seat and harness to hold you in place would be my next addition. Actually you can add the harness to the stock seat, but a racing style seat works better. The harness will require a rollbar, and the best I've used is the Maximum Motorsport part.
Next I'd address the front arm bushings. The Whiteline KCA433 kit duplicates the racing arm bushings.
Beyond that, better dampers, effective aero, engine tuning and bolt-ons for power, and even bigger tires are on the list.

 

[Mad Hatter]

The beginners setup to going fast in an S197 Boss 302.
Swap to 18x11 wheels with 315 tires. Alternatively, 19x11 on 305 tires.
Change the rear brakes to the GT500 rotors and caliper extension bracket.
Change the rear ratio to 3.55:1. If you've got a non-Boss GT, use 3.31:1 ratio and change the differential to a T2R.
Add rear lower arm relocation brackets, and optionally, lower adjustable arms.
Add camber plates (should be done with the tires).
Add an adjustable panhard bar or Watts link (also should be done with the tires).
At a minimum use the Bilsteins and lowering springs, consider swapping the springs to 450# front with a sleeve kit and 175# rear using Vorshlag parts.
Swap to the heavier, adjustable, Whiteline sway bars, particularly in the rear.
Consider deleting the oil heater in favor of an air-to-oil oil cooler.
Add a stiffer bushing to the transmission to help with miss-shifts. Either the Whiteline bushing reinforcement or the Energy Suspension shifter bushing, or both.
Add track worthy brake pads and brake cooling.

Those changes will get you -VERY- far into the performance of the S197.

A better seat and harness to hold you in place would be my next addition. Actually you can add the harness to the stock seat, but a racing style seat works better. The harness will require a rollbar, and the best I've used is the Maximum Motorsport part.
Next I'd address the front arm bushings. The Whiteline KCA433 kit duplicates the racing arm bushings.
Beyond that, better dampers, effective aero, engine tuning and bolt-ons for power, and even bigger tires are on the list.

With that list, no e92 M3 will be able to keep up unless the owner spends some serious $$$$$. Do you really think that the gt500 discs in the rear will help that much?? I have been sitting on the fence on that upgrade for a while as its adding weight etc.

 

[blacksheep-1]

For those scoring at home..
I will take my beating and please accept my apology for the comment on the 305s.
Mustangs need all the rubber you can get, and if you can cram 315s under the fenders, they actually look pretty cool. Most SCCA stuff is only good for 295s, and that is what I'm used to.

 

[67GTA]

With that list, no e92 M3 will be able to keep up unless the owner spends some serious $$$$$. Do you really think that the gt500 discs in the rear will help that much?? I have been sitting on the fence on that upgrade for a while as its adding weight etc.

Just hold tight another 30 days - Girodisc will have the 2 piece rears available in the GT500 size. Don’t know what the final weight will be, but those combined with the Blowfish aluminum brackets and I’m probably at or less than the OE weight.