Ozarks International!!

[RES_22]

Hmmmmm....a little bit of Barber, VIR, Road Atlanta....with a slight slight resemblance to Mosport in a couple of places.

Nicely done (except for some of the Armco sites....shiver).

 

[TeeLew]

No offense gentleman, but since both TeeLew and consultjr have 20 years experience, but one lists his main focus as autocrossing and the other lists his as W2W , I am going to have to give the edge to Consultjr! Doesn't hurt that he lives in Salt Lake , but having run at Miller a couple of times, watched a couple of Pro Races in person, I don't find it lacking passing zones, they are just not as easy as some other tracks.

Bill P ( 40 years auto crossing and W2W -- yep , I be ancient , ha! )

It's entirely possible that what I list publicly about what I do with my personal car is not the entirety of my racing experience.

I'll play the resume game with anyone, but that's just putting forth an argument based on authority. Let's base our discussion off the merits of the argument as opposed to the background of the writer.

Utah (the full track) kinda sucks to race. Barber kinda sucks to race. New Orleans, New Jersey and any number of country club tracks all kind of suck to race. Wilson is notorious for never designing a good passing zone, which is why I asked about this one. I'm not talking about a club race. A driver like me makes plenty of mistakes so I'll provide any number of passing zones on any track, but if you want to have good Pro races, the track needs to have at least one legitimate passing zone.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

We can all agree to disagree, I just like quite a few of his tracks since the guys that complain about the 2 that I go to happen to open the door for me and some others - they don't think we can pass where we do. I saw a lot of passing when I was at Miller, maybe I was just lucky, but I know many folks like certain track designs due to their driving style. I am not going to beat anyone on reflexes at my age so I really enjoy the technical tracks. I guess when I view some of my favorite tracks I still see limited passing spots unless someone messes up, and that trait carries over to almost all tracks. I love Road Atlanta and I love Miller, but then I really enjoy my home track in Hastings , Ne. --- Alan designed the track and many track rat friends have ventured there and enjoy the track as it seems safe to most , but to go fast you are on the limits in a couple of spots. I have been to 21 tracks around the US and often the ones I like are not the ones I expected to, but it sure looks like Ozark is going to be a star! Mr. Wilson did not design it and as noted it was modeled after European tracks where the lay of the land is really an integral part of the final design. Going to be epic if the rumors it runs like a little American Nurburgring ring true.

 

[3V_SN95]

Whoa! Well, add this one to the list! Mini-nurburgring were my first thoughts, as @Bill Pemberton noted. 3.87 miles of pure joy!

 

[TeeLew]

Bill, the only reason you can pass where you do is because of who you are on track with. Any track has passing zones on a lapping day. I'm talking about Pro racing, which the Missouri track will introduce next year. It would be nice if new tracks at least had a nod towards hosting big races. At it is, they're mostly country club tracks. The MO track doesn't appear to be a country club track, it has too much character for that, but it still doesn't have a real passing zone.

You mention Road Atlanta and Utah in the same sentence (which could be considered sacrilege), but regardless of personal proclivities, you've got to appreciate the differences between these two tracks. One of them is a balls-to-the-wall Rollercoaster, which *has* a real passing zone, produces great racing, including Petit Lemans this weekend, & the other is the world's biggest Malibu Grand Prix which hosts exactly zero spectator races a year. This is not an accident.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

........we just differ on our interpretations. We all like tracks for different reasons and I just do not see Miller as you do. I found certain parts great for passing whereas you obviously do not like the track and that is okay. Building spectator races is difficult in many parts of the US, but a lot has to do with promotion. I credit Dr. Panoz with building Road Atlanta into the event site it is today, but it did not happen overnight. Regardless, we all like different tracks for different reasons and I can respect that. I personally hate virtually all rovals since they are hard on suspensions and more and almost all are constant crash fests. There are plenty of quasi Country Club tracks that are fun due to their ambiance, facilities and often difficult places to pass ( as you note ). I enjoy that because it means you drive even more with your brain than your butt, because you are looking for your competitor's screw ups to pass.

Yet there are some absolutely riotous tracks that lack spectators that are a hoot ( Hi-Plains Raceway in Colorado for instance ) but I guess I am just thankful there are so many track choices today and even more in the works. I like Alan Wilson's designs in some cases and you do not, it is just a matter of opinion and I like the Country Club aspect ( as an Instructor ) because it gives newcomers a place to find the sport. Definitely a better place to learn than say, Road America , but I find almost any track I go to there are things I like and frankly the trick of finding an area to pass is often part of the challenge.

So consultjr and I really like Miller , you do not, but I sent a bunch of friends/customers there for the Ford Racing school and many raved about the course. The options are great and I will admit to liking the West Course over the East , but the full course is great as it is an exercise in memory for many.

Now back to Ozark, the Central Region of NASA will have two races there in 2022 so we will get back with all kinds of data for those on this site, and what a treat to have another fun choice in the Midwest. You can check www.drivenasa.com and then go to the Central Region to see the dates pretty soon ( they may not all be up yet ). There is a date in April and one in June and they should be heavily participated in , since I know one of the races will be co-hosted by the Great Lakes Region of NASA.

 

[TeeLew]

Well, we can agree on Rovals, I guess. The SRO (World Challenge) is booked at Ozark next year. We'll know more about how it races after that weekend.

 

[Badvoodoo]

TeeLew, you pretty much highjacked this thread! When you jump in and claim that it must be a Wilson track without even seeing it first hand is some what insulting. I, like Bill have driven multiple Wilson tracks and I’ve never had passing issues. Other than being long Miller provides plenty of places to pass. High Plains is in my back yard and is a highly technical layout! I have hundreds of race laps there and never get tired of driving the track. Ozarks is High Plains, Hallett, VIR, Road Atlanta, Barber, Mosport, on steroids. I love all the mentioned tracks but, I’m just saying…it is a must drive!
That being said you should start your own thread on why you feel Wilson tracks aren’t good for racing. From what we’ve already seen, it would be very entertaining!
And, when SRO runs Ozarks I will promise that turn 1 will be very fun to watch!

 

[TeeLew]

I watched the vid and looked at a map. I don't have to physically visit a track to evaluate it. That's my opinion. If you don't like it, then keep scrolling.

I would have no problem telling Alan exactly what I think of his tracks. If you feel differently, then consider it's entirely possible that we approach our track visits with different goals.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

We probably should just move on and I can appreciate we all have different opinions. The big surprise I will offer is that almost everyone who ran the track also races with me in the Central Region of NASA. The calls and emails I got were to make me feel like a cheapskate for not ponying up some cash and getting to the invite only opening run, but the main focus of the call was that the track could not be imagined by the video and the maps . This was because there were so many off camber areas, the elevation changes were so severe, and at almost 4 miles long finding all the lines were beyond intense. Considering some of these guys are great drivers they simply told me no video could describe the track ( this was a comment completely on their own, no reference to anything said here ). I would politely suggest this is likely a track that is too difficult to properly analyze without running ....kind of like Nurburgring. Hopefully that might entice folks from around the US to venture out to the Ozarks. I know I am still mad at myself because I am worn out hearing how unique this road course is from all my racing buds. Got calls, texts and emails from an American Iron Camaro Driver, Porsche racer, Mustang TT driver, Corvette driver, so pretty diverse group.

 

[Badvoodoo]

TeeLew,
Now you’ve spiked my curiosity! What exactly are your goals when you visit a track? I take something away from every track I drive. I may not like every section of every track I drive, but to say you flat out don’t like anything about any of Wilson’s tracks seen very close minded. And to say that you can tell from the video and the track map that you would not like the track is pretty bold. The elevation changes and camber angles are way more extreme that what the video portrays. What tracks do you like?

 

[Badvoodoo]

I watched the vid and looked at a map. I don't have to physically visit a track to evaluate it. That's my opinion. If you don't like it, then keep scrolling.

I would have no problem telling Alan exactly what I think of his tracks. If you feel differently, then consider it's entirely possible that we approach our track visits with different goals.

See latest question above.

 

[Tonymustang302]

I have seen some negative comments regarding barriers, all from the two wheeled community. Sliding into a barrier in a car is not what I want to do. On a bike, OMG.
I now have another track on my bucket list.
Bucket list:
Watkins Glen
Ozarks
Laguna
COTA
Indy
Daytona

And autobahn with me……is not on your list

 

[TMSBOSS]

And autobahn with me……is not on your list

Autobahn I have done. Fun track. What we have between us I wanted to keep personal and Special. LOL

When can I get to Autobahn and drive, god knows. I work in the south and scheduling track time at Autobahn has been challenging. Time off in the winter is easy, Autobahn is closed. Something about snow and ice. I vaguely remember snow and ice. If you can load up the fancy new trailer of yours and come south, we can work out something. COTA to Daytona there are fun "Winter" escape sites.

 

[Tonymustang302]

Autobahn I have done. Fun track. What we have between us I wanted to keep personal and Special. LOL

When can I get to Autobahn and drive, god knows. I work in the south and scheduling track time at Autobahn has been challenging. Time off in the winter is easy, Autobahn is closed. Something about snow and ice. I vaguely remember snow and ice. If you can load up the fancy new trailer of yours and come south, we can work out something. COTA to Daytona there are fun "Winter" escape sites.

Its a date

 

[TeeLew]

TeeLew,
Now you’ve spiked my curiosity! What exactly are your goals when you visit a track? I take something away from every track I drive. I may not like every section of every track I drive, but to say you flat out don’t like anything about any of Wilson’s tracks seen very close minded. And to say that you can tell from the video and the track map that you would not like the track is pretty bold. The elevation changes and camber angles are way more extreme that what the video portrays. What tracks do you like?

I said the track was "beautiful and probably fun to drive", but my criticism was that there are no real passing zones. That's it. Full stop. It's really not all that complicated.

Alan Wilson never has a long straight with a straight brake zone into a slow corner (generally 90 degrees). Am I the close-minded one? Maybe so, I like good racing. No apologies.

In racing where there is a large discrepancy in driver ability, any track works. At higher levels of racing, the track needs to be arranged in a way which invites passing. Road America T5, T8 & Canada Corner all work. Portland festivals, Road Atlanta T10 & damned near every street course all have this feature.

Many Road courses don't race well, because the designer gets too clever by 1/2. Mid-Ohio, Barber & Laguna are all examples of natural terrain road courses which are beautiful, but don't race well. As the track has deteriorated at Laguna, the racing has improved hugely, because tire deg is through the roof, but no one would build a track that way on purpose.

What are my goals? To race. I don't generally go to racetracks for recreational lapping. When I do, any track works, but it's a significantly different visit.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

My apologies but I don't understand your logic , especially stating Wilson never has a long straight with a slow turn, especially as Miller has one heck of a long straight with a decently slow left hand at turn one. The track I used to run a lot ( till it was under 14 foot of flood water ) ,near my home, has a 2222 ft. straight followed by a sharp right turn close to 90 degrees, so I would have to say the word "never" is not necessarily true with these Alan Wilson track. I absolutely love Mid Ohio and with the packed houses watching races there, not sure I understand why you say it does not race well, as the excitement in turn 1 , the keyhole, and a pass near China Beach keeps spectators on the edge of their seats. I am trying to understand , but I don't follow your logic of what races well, because to me just a long straight with heavy braking is not the only quality passing zone. Turn 1 , 7, and 12 are every bit as exciting a place to pass at Road Atlanta as 10, but I think this conversation is more about what dynamics each of us enjoys at a track so why not table the decision on Ozark until a race has been run.

I will wait and see if it races well in April of 2022 when the Central Region of NASA has their first event there. I obviously am hoping you are wrong in your assessment , and hope that will be the first taste of whether it is a racers track or just a cruise through some wicked Missouri hills?

 

[Badvoodoo]

TeeLew,
I did watch Petite Le Mans today. I’m guessing that you did as well. What I gather from your comments you like downhill braking zones at the end of long straight into 90 degree corners. I.e turn 5 at Road America and Turn 10 at Road Atlanta. On a flatter scale turn 1 and 12 at RA and 6 at Atlanta. Well, turn 10 at Road Atlanta always provides lots of excitement as it did today. Lots of contact! Ended the season poorly for Turner Motorsports wouldn’t you say? Happens all the time at turn 10. 5 and Canada corner at RA as well.
I missed the first part of Petite today but when I did start watching where were the passes being made that actually stuck without contact…turn 1 at the end of the short straight into the high speed up hill sweeper. Where were those passes set up, yep 10 and 10a, get a run down the hill into 12 and make a non contact pass into turn one. I’m just saying, not always are 90s at the end of a long straight a good place to attempt a pass, unless you’ve got unlimited funds or are driving someone else’s car who has unlimited funds. And unless it’s a horsepower race down the straight into 10 the pass is set up by a good exit at 7.
I love driving tracks like Atlanta, RA, VIR and Sebring and now, Ozarks. Road America, while Its a great track, it is kind of a go fast turn right, go fast turn left track. Again, this is my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions! While it is very high speed in a high HP car it’s not that super technical to drive, except for the kink and maybe thru 12,13. In a low HP car, you just keep your foot to the floor. And bring a lunch cuz u can eat it up the main straight. Don’t misunderstand me..It’s still one of my favorite tracks.
All that being said, whether at a track for a race or at the track for a HPDE, I’m there to go fast, have fun, but most of all continue to improve my skill set. And of course hang with fellow addicts! Most of the time something that works at one track is a take away that will work for multiple tracks. And one thing I promise…Ozark International checks all those boxes many times over.

 

[TeeLew]

You didn't watch a Petit Le Mans yesterday, you watched the GS race. You'll watch it today. When you do, you'll see the car I engineer.

My opinion is just my opinion, but it is not one which is uninformed.

 

[Badvoodoo]

Excuse me for not clarifying exactly what I was watching. Semantics. Petite weekend! I was watching at 0500 on the other side of the world. Sorry for the confusion. Just for clarification don’t assume that I don’t know what Im discussing either. I will be watching the race when I get home. Im on an airplane as we speak.
i will reiterate my point again. Auberlen’s entire season was ruined by contact in the engineering marvel of a 90 at the end of a long straight. How did he get along side to even attempt the pass? More smash coming out of 7 and a little draft. Other tracks have filled in the gravel pits at the end of long straights so as not to have such catastrophic outcomes due to contact. RA at turn 1 and Canada Corner come to mind. And just to be clear what happened to Bill was a total racing incident!
But, you’re. an engineer for what is obviously a very high end team or they would not be running the Petite today. So, I’m sure you know that.