Race Tire Education

[LaneDeparture]

I need an education on race tires. Any suggestions on where to start? If it helps, I’m only entering HPDE events.

New vs take-offs?
Where to buy? (more importantly, who to avoid buying from). Is there a vendor that I could work with that would have the patience to help me select the right option?
Car has Hoosier R7, but is there a better option for an intermediate driver? (more cost effective, not sure I’m getting the potential out of the R7)

Thanks!
Mike

 

[KazarS197]

Welcome to TMO Mike! Don't forget to create a car profile in the link below. When you create a car profile it will automatically create a build thread.

Browse S197 Mustangs

View Specs, Mod Lists, Photos, and Build Threads for track-prepped S197 Mustangs on TMO.

trackmustangsonline.com

It will help the experienced/seasoned members answer any questions and give suggestions. Plus we all like photos of awesome mustangs! For now maybe post your wheel size in this thread so guys have a direction to go. Depending on wheel diameter and width tire selections will vary.

 

[PatrickStapler]

I feel like this is a @blacksheep-1 moment.

 

[SydWays]

I need an education on race tires. Any suggestions on where to start? If it helps, I’m only entering HPDE events.

New vs take-offs?
Where to buy? (more importantly, who to avoid buying from). Is there a vendor that I could work with that would have the patience to help me select the right option?
Car has Hoosier R7, but is there a better option for an intermediate driver? (more cost effective, not sure I’m getting the potential out of the R7)

Thanks!
Mike

I would suggest starting online with TireRack.com. There's a vast amount of knowledge to be learned there. They handle a large cross section of performance tires, and if you chose to purchase from them, they have competitive pricing and free shipping. I typically get 1-2 day shipping to Portland, OR. They also provide heat cycle services if you need that. Hope this info helps get you pointed in the right direction.

 

[blacksheep-1]

I'll be back tomorrow to comment on this..

 

[blacksheep-1]

I need an education on race tires. Any suggestions on where to start? If it helps, I’m only entering HPDE events.

New vs take-offs?
Where to buy? (more importantly, who to avoid buying from). Is there a vendor that I could work with that would have the patience to help me select the right option?
Car has Hoosier R7, but is there a better option for an intermediate driver? (more cost effective, not sure I’m getting the potential out of the R7)

Thanks!
Mike

First off, if you are new to this, I would just buy some 200TW tires and go to some driver schools and sharpen your skills. Once you feel that you are getting the most out of that, you can proceed forward to more aggressive tires.
I would not run less than 295 tires on a Mustang, they are heavy cars.
With regards to used tires, remember that if you pay half price, for a tire that is half used up, in reality you are paying the same as a new tire, but getting the worst half of the tire.
The Hoosier R7 tire line is very consistent throughout it's life, so is the A7, but it will wear out sooner.
The Pirellis stick better, but when they drop off, you drop off of a cliff, losing seconds, they really have no middle ground.
Michelins are probably the best of all, and we disposed of literally dozens last week at Daytona, some only having 1 heat cycle on them. In any case, Michelins seem to last the longest and are the most consistent, but they cost about $3300 / set.
Phoenix sells their used stuff, but 295s are a hot commodity right now since the SCCA is now allowing them back on Mustangs. You can also find them from IMSA teams like Kohr and PF.
IMO a real under rated tire is Kumho, if you can find them for about $800/set.

 

[Dave_W]

If you buy from Tire Rack, please use the link under Marketplace at the top of the page, it helps fund the site.

Tell us about the car - model, any major suspension/power mods, wheel size(s), front camber setting, brake pads. Will you track it in the rain? I'm guessing you're looking for dedicated track tires and you've got street tires, right? You say intermediate driver, how important is chasing lap times - do you want a tire that will give you a few fast laps and fall off with heat soak, or something that will be a bit slower but gives you consistent laps for a full session?

Grassroots Motorsport magazine had a good roundup of tires in a recent issue - the chart and a link to the article are in this post:

New 200 TWR tire coming out from Continental -- with some Hoosier DNA.

Tire Rack has the 315/30-18 at $386. I don’t think anyone pays full price at Track Day Tire, so with discount about $368. A bit higher than the RT660, about even with the Rival S and a bit lower than the A052. I don’t expect them to be as quick as those 3, but hoping for long life. One thing...

trackmustangsonline.com

I'd probably look primarily at the tires in the "Endurance 200" section, but would consider tires outside that, paying attention to the Heat Tolerance ratings.

 

[TennTex]

Michelins are probably the best of all, and we disposed of literally dozens last week at Daytona, some only having 1 heat cycle on them.

Hey bs1, "all the time listner, first time caller"

Enjoyed all the Daytona posts, and tire knowledge in general, and I was wondering about all the leftover Michelin's from these events. I see you used the word "disposed", so they were trashed/recycled, i.e. not available for used purchase? I caught a deal on excess stock of the Conti's from Hoosier a couple years ago, but they were corded about the time I had really figured out how much I could push them. Would love to try a set of these Michelin's someday!

 

[blacksheep-1]

Hey bs1, "all the time listner, first time caller"

Enjoyed all the Daytona posts, and tire knowledge in general, and I was wondering about all the leftover Michelin's from these events. I see you used the word "disposed", so they were trashed/recycled, i.e. not available for used purchase? I caught a deal on excess stock of the Conti's from Hoosier a couple years ago, but they were corded about the time I had really figured out how much I could push them. Would love to try a set of these Michelin's someday!

The Kohr guys didn't have many spares, but they may now because they just did a tire test, The Mercedes guys had their tires "cut" so they could look at them (for some reason). They were all worked up because the rains were blistering. Yep, we tossed dozens of barely used tires, it was sad to see, but there was no way I could scrounge up old rubber in the middle of a race, believe me, it brought tears to my eyes.
I think a company called "Jackson" supplied all the tire stuff, you might try to talk to them, but you have to understand, Michelin is loaded with engineers and so is every Daytona 24 team out there, and they love to hose away resources.

 

[TennTex]

The Kohr guys didn't have many spares, but they may now because they just did a tire test, The Mercedes guys had their tires "cut" so they could look at them (for some reason). They were all worked up because the rains were blistering. Yep, we tossed dozens of barely used tires, it was sad to see, but there was no way I could scrounge up old rubber in the middle of a race, believe me, it brought tears to my eyes.
I think a company called "Jackson" supplied all the tire stuff, you might try to talk to them, but you have to understand, Michelin is loaded with engineers and so is every Daytona 24 team out there, and they love to hose away resources.

Thanks Blacksheep. Yeah, it would be hard to watch tires being thrown away, but they operate in a different "reality" so is what it is...

I've never really investigated used tires much, but was starting to look at it. Thanks again for the info!

 

[trackdao]

First off, if you are new to this, I would just buy some 200TW tires and go to some driver schools and sharpen your skills. Once you feel that you are getting the most out of that, you can proceed forward to more aggressive tires.
I would not run less than 295 tires on a Mustang, they are heavy cars.
With regards to used tires, remember that if you pay half price, for a tire that is half used up, in reality you are paying the same as a new tire, but getting the worst half of the tire.
The Hoosier R7 tire line is very consistent throughout it's life, so is the A7, but it will wear out sooner.
The Pirellis stick better, but when they drop off, you drop off of a cliff, losing seconds, they really have no middle ground.
Michelins are probably the best of all, and we disposed of literally dozens last week at Daytona, some only having 1 heat cycle on them. In any case, Michelins seem to last the longest and are the most consistent, but they cost about $3300 / set.
Phoenix sells their used stuff, but 295s are a hot commodity right now since the SCCA is now allowing them back on Mustangs. You can also find them from IMSA teams like Kohr and PF.
IMO a real under rated tire is Kumho, if you can find them for about $800/set.

Great info, thx!! What can you say about the GY F1 Supercar 3Rs vs the Sport Cup 2s, I'm due to replace my SC 2s after 1 or 2 more track days? Been recommended to use them. Thanks!

 

[blacksheep-1]

truth is, I'm more of a race only application guy, Pemberton would be the guy to ask for street rubber

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Have friends using both and I have run the Michelins myself, and the consensus seems to be they are quite similar --heck their tread pattern has them damn near twins. At present the easy key seems to go with the Goodyears , mainly because they are cheaper.

They suck ---- technical term for what both of them are like in the rain.

 

[RES_22]

As mentioned, GRM did a good overview on this recently: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/

Refer to the chart at the end of the article...it's helpful...covers several tire performance metrics quite nicely.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Have to agree that the " Grassroots Motorsports " chart is quite helpful though one has to make sure they do their due diligence because many of those listed do not have optimal sizes for our Mustangs. I do caution folks to ask a lot of questions when purchasing certain tires, because over the years some have been very inconsistent in keeping inventory available in the US ( prior to the shipping shortages we see today ). I suggest one call Luke Pavlik ( #4362 ) at Tire Rack ( 1-800-428-8355 ) to check on tires because some brands will be limited again this year and some , like RS4s , which only show 3 sizes, may be leaving or changing their sales inventory. Drivers are not excited when they spend a bunch on a tire and then almost overnight the brand/model disappears. Luke is a sicko Trackrat, has been doing his job for well over 20 years and he does keep up on changes. There are plenty of folks frustrated that RE71s are gone, as well as BFG gforce R1Ss. Luke clued me in on the change coming for BFG and saved me from a purchase of a set of tires where if one wore out or had damage, it could not be replaced.

Lastly, ask questions of the experienced drivers at the track or autocross you run, because like any tests you read the surface you may run often may favor a certain tire brand/model.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Another note, like RES-22 I absolutely love " Grassroots Motorsports " having met Tim Suddard clear back in the 80s when he was starting the magazine. I personally recommend this magazine over all others for those who love racing, HPDEs, autocrossing, modifications, performance updates, etc. You will read it front to back and a subscription is super cheap. Go to grassrootsmotorsports.com and buy a subscription at 19.99 , currently that also gets you a T -Shirt!

 

[TeeLew]

The Mercedes guys had their tires "cut" so they could look at them (for some reason). They were all worked up because the rains were blistering.

Well, since there was hardly ever a really wet track, the rains blistering doesn't seem all that troubling.

As far as cutting the tire, that's to make an evaluation on how the sidewall/tread face junction is holding up. That's what lets go first, and if the it's close to letting go, you'll see broken belts and frayed threads sticking out. The banking can hurt the tires, for sure, but not at the pressures Michelin required. Cutting tires is only really necessary if you're doubling tires. For singles, it was probably more of a case of German paranoia (we can call that conscientiousness if you want a positive spin).

 

[blacksheep-1]

Well, since there was hardly ever a really wet track, the rains blistering doesn't seem all that troubling.

As far as cutting the tire, that's to make an evaluation on how the sidewall/tread face junction is holding up. That's what lets go first, and if the it's close to letting go, you'll see broken belts and frayed threads sticking out. The banking can hurt the tires, for sure, but not at the pressures Michelin required. Cutting tires is only really necessary if you're doubling tires. For singles, it was probably more of a case of German paranoia (we can call that conscientiousness if you want a positive spin).

these things were fine, prolly the paranoia thing, the rains were getting smoked pretty quickly, Im surprised Mich didn't have an intermediate, actually, maybe they did but they weren't available in GTD.

 

[TeeLew]

these things were fine, prolly the paranoia thing, the rains were getting smoked pretty quickly, Im surprised Mich didn't have an intermediate, actually, maybe they did but they weren't available in GTD.

I've never seen a Michelin inter in the US.

 

[blacksheep-1]

I've never seen a Michelin inter in the US.

we used to make our own in Continental, but I don't see Mich letting that fly