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Alex
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Why a 10-Speed Transmission Actually Makes Sense
- Thread starterboss302ls
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I grew up driving Fuller 5 speeds on Mack CF600 series fire trucks, around 1980 everything went Allison because kids couldn't drive sticks, we have the same problem today, kids drive a Honda all week, then want to wheel a 76K ladder truck through traffic.. lol your results may vary.
With regards to the 10 speeds in vehicles, they all seem to suffer from overheat issues, even the Camaro ZL1 and it's Corvette cousin have issues with them. At some point they have to be counter productive, because at some time, some place, they need to drive the car not hunt for a gear. Drag racers went through this awhile back, seems 5 speeds is about all they can handle. The Lencos are planetary so they are a bit different since a gear is always engaged.
I'm the one who found that pan online. The PML guys are dragging their feet but PPE has one so we don't need PML. My reason for looking at this pan is the problems Flyhalf has found trying to stay cool. My idea was to completely bypass the Ford system which has potential bugs of small cooler, thermistic bypass, and 2 stage oil filter that changes the level of flow restriction. All these things can contribute to a cooling issue.
Horsepower and aero create heat. Anything that decrease laptime increases heat. Flyhalf has more power and aero and I thought the bypass appraoch would solve that because you can weld a AN-8 bung to the pan or drill and tap the pan for a bung. I do not know if you can do that with plastic pans.
Flyhalf says at his power and aero level he is fine with temps. We will see if he is happy now.
2018 was the 1st A10. 1st anything often has some bugs. I'm racing 2019 A10 and think this is not your 2018A10. Shift up and down are PDK level. It holds to redline and will fall on it's face from the limiter so you have have to drive properly. I have quite a bit of time in a 2017 718 cayman pdk. Cooling for me was not an issue. I just have a big Derale 67,000btu cooler in place of the stock one. I also can't make the power due to class rules running restrictor, no aero, and restricted tire. My trans is not getting the workout of Flyhalf because there is more time between turns i.e. higher laptime. Flyhalf will timetrial Buttonwillow in the middle of summer and I will not be caught dead racing out there after May. So we run at different ambient temperature thus lower demands on my cooling system. I was very dissapointed in my maiden trackday on street tires at WSIR. Yes I got trans and diff warning lights after just a few hot laps but the trans worked flawless until the lights. I stopped my day early to not over heat the trans and immediately went to work on cooling. I have had zero issues with the A10. 10speeds is too many gears. Feels like you are shifting all the time and there is no laptime advantage. Compared to a 6spd manual it's like I can shift twice as fast but have to make twice as many shifts so no advantage. Left foot braking is obviously easier and that is about it.
Oh the idea of just keeping car in auto and just driving letting car do it's thing is a no go. Auto shift upsets the chassis too much. Paddle shifts are so smooth I need more noise in the cockpit to know the car has actually shifted!
the 10 speed of the ZL1 1LE doesn't suffer like we do especially considering 200 hp and ftlbs more than us.
the have a alluminium Pan, bigger cooler better clutches and different TC.
MACH1 is coming with an upgraded 10speed. different TC ( which is THE REAL THING FAILING) and better cooling.
TC . the TC in this 10 speed has a BIG PROBLEM. the lockup clutch. this tranny is locked most of the time so all the work is on the little SURFACE built lock up clutch. I DONT REALLY KNOW WHY FORD WBUILT THIS CLUTCH ON THE TC SURFACE.
hopefully the new mach1 TC is better?
After putting the pan my next upgrade will be to run continous flow tp the Cooler And i finally found HOW..just need someone to help me produce the piece I need. ( i also need a working thermostat cause the one i have is broken. Bob offers his services ( thanks!) but i hope to find someone local.
the have a alluminium Pan, bigger cooler better clutches and different TC.
MACH1 is coming with an upgraded 10speed. different TC ( which is THE REAL THING FAILING) and better cooling.
TC . the TC in this 10 speed has a BIG PROBLEM. the lockup clutch. this tranny is locked most of the time so all the work is on the little SURFACE built lock up clutch. I DONT REALLY KNOW WHY FORD WBUILT THIS CLUTCH ON THE TC SURFACE.
hopefully the new mach1 TC is better?
After putting the pan my next upgrade will be to run continous flow tp the Cooler And i finally found HOW..just need someone to help me produce the piece I need. ( i also need a working thermostat cause the one i have is broken. Bob offers his services ( thanks!) but i hope to find someone local.
Car and Driver mag had an article about this and said anything more than a 10 spd trans would start going backward as for as performance.............................I'll stick with my Boss 6 spd manual for the enjoyment factor..........................
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I had a feeling the lockup convertor was going to be a problem it has been that way since the old 700R4 GM trannies, I think I even mentioned it
Grant 302
basic and well known psychic
Unless you have complete control and understanding of the tranny tuning, blaming the hardware is of little use. Just sayin.
Torque Converters! Grant302 is right on target.
I know that Flyhalf claimed his 2nd A10 failure was not the tranny but the torque converter. I'm skeptical on this only because the techs who know trannys are no smarter than the ones who know engines. The overall knowledge base of techs is really poor and the more computerized an engine or tranny becomes the less they know and understand. Even simple mechanicals are beyond these part replacers. Yes there are great techs out there who are worth more than they are being paid but there are many who are worthless. Even guys you hire who should know better just don't. Not too recently it took me 3 engines to get one that worked and that one did not work as well as my 1st engine from the factory. The best engines/trans are the one that came with the car. Second are "crates" you get from manufacturer. Worst are those built from parts or rebuilds.
If Flyhalf's TC failed on his 2nd "crate" tranny the failure point mechanically is most likely the lock-up clutch in the TC. This gets burned out by overheat. This is the hottest point of the tranny. It is like the combustion chamber in an motor where at the Tsat we only read 200F the combustion chamber is way higher than that. Heat is still the #1 killer of auto trans. If Flyhalf's TC did actually fail I suspect it is not due to the TC itself but overheating. That's just the mechanical side of failure. There are huge electronics in modern trannys. Unless you know the control system's strategy for converter clutch operation you could have a hard time figuring out if your problem is really mechanical in the TC. Most TC problems come from outside the TC like valve body, solenoids or electronic controls. The strategy of the 1st year 2018 might be very different as the model year evolves. The last year of a model is always the best of breed.
I know that Flyhalf claimed his 2nd A10 failure was not the tranny but the torque converter. I'm skeptical on this only because the techs who know trannys are no smarter than the ones who know engines. The overall knowledge base of techs is really poor and the more computerized an engine or tranny becomes the less they know and understand. Even simple mechanicals are beyond these part replacers. Yes there are great techs out there who are worth more than they are being paid but there are many who are worthless. Even guys you hire who should know better just don't. Not too recently it took me 3 engines to get one that worked and that one did not work as well as my 1st engine from the factory. The best engines/trans are the one that came with the car. Second are "crates" you get from manufacturer. Worst are those built from parts or rebuilds.
If Flyhalf's TC failed on his 2nd "crate" tranny the failure point mechanically is most likely the lock-up clutch in the TC. This gets burned out by overheat. This is the hottest point of the tranny. It is like the combustion chamber in an motor where at the Tsat we only read 200F the combustion chamber is way higher than that. Heat is still the #1 killer of auto trans. If Flyhalf's TC did actually fail I suspect it is not due to the TC itself but overheating. That's just the mechanical side of failure. There are huge electronics in modern trannys. Unless you know the control system's strategy for converter clutch operation you could have a hard time figuring out if your problem is really mechanical in the TC. Most TC problems come from outside the TC like valve body, solenoids or electronic controls. The strategy of the 1st year 2018 might be very different as the model year evolves. The last year of a model is always the best of breed.
An aftermarket TQ with a beefier multi clutch plate set up may be the solution.
I also like to idea blacksheep1 floated awhile back, add a separate cooler with its own pump and lines. Only thing to watch for is where the new circuit would dump the fluid back into the pan. You don't want to aerate the fluid anywhere near the trans fluid intake.
Yeah bob
When i say TC is the locjup clutch on it
There is ONLY ONE OPTION FOR AFTER MARKET TC with SEPARATE LOCK UP CLUTCH. Suncoast does it. But 3500 $
Not possible.
Really looking forward for the mach1 upgraded TC.
PS. today we mounted the new pan.
Looks great. Also the spilling i was having last time was due to the hose of the tranny catch can that i put in the breather that ford techs didn't replugged. So should be fine now.
When i say TC is the locjup clutch on it
There is ONLY ONE OPTION FOR AFTER MARKET TC with SEPARATE LOCK UP CLUTCH. Suncoast does it. But 3500 $
Not possible.
Really looking forward for the mach1 upgraded TC.
PS. today we mounted the new pan.
Looks great. Also the spilling i was having last time was due to the hose of the tranny catch can that i put in the breather that ford techs didn't replugged. So should be fine now.
Grant 302
basic and well known psychic
I’d talk to these guys:
Ford HP Series 10R80 Torque Converter
HP Series Billet Stator Torque Converter Converter Diameter - 245mm or 258mm
www.circledspecialties.com
I did. They are not a good option. They just mod OEM ones to stall at higher RPM.I’d talk to these guys:Ford HP Series 10R80 Torque Converter
HP Series Billet Stator Torque Converter Converter Diameter - 245mm or 258mmwww.circledspecialties.com
When i called them they weren't interested to do somenthing for roadcourse.
Suncoast are next level. But man 3 grand is a lot.
Problem is. No one has experience for roadcourse. All focusing on drag racing
Grant 302
basic and well known psychic
Of course that’s what they do. That’s where the money is at. But what (specifically) did you ask them about?
I mean when I bought one from them (yes for drag racing) it wasn’t a rebuilt unit and didn’t use the factory lockup. I know they are setup to build ‘looser’ converters, but I’d think they’d have the capability to build what you’d need.
I don’t know Suncoast, but haven’t kept up with anything automatic. But what do they build that is road course oriented? Or is it just an upgraded lockup? And if they already build what you want or think you need...then at least you know the price.
Anyway...my real question is: What are you doing with the tranny programming? And is anybody looking at the valvebody for modifications to port sizing? The longer it takes for a band to engage, the more heat it generates.
I haven’t thought much about what I’d do to get an auto ready for road course work, and was happy enough just to follow along. But it sounds like you’ve got more issues to tackle.
I had a nice discussion saying :"i road course the car only" I lost 2 trannies due to TC and I would love to understand if you guys can help me with a better TC.i.e. do you guys have better Lockup clutches?.answer was' yeah i'm sorry we just modify oem TC to the stall rpm the user will require.
suncoast has a very nice product ( on paper at least..) here the link :https://suncoastdiesel.com/i-30498495-10r80-xpl-pro-loc-billet-torque-converter-240mm.html
Tranny programs is more about gear speed engagment : my upshift is very fast.too fast. enfact. the TC kick in between 4-5-6 . stalling the car. So i will reuqest a smoother transition at least between 5-6. ( i know it will generate more heat) .Downshifting is awful and the real achilles' heel . I will try a faster and harsher downshifting. right now it looks like my granma downshifting lol
attached my next solution for running 24-7 the fluid to the cooler ( instead waiting the 195f) .i will do it after i test the pan. again temps were great till they weren't anymore cause lockup clutch failed. and slipped.
suncoast has a very nice product ( on paper at least..) here the link :https://suncoastdiesel.com/i-30498495-10r80-xpl-pro-loc-billet-torque-converter-240mm.html
Tranny programs is more about gear speed engagment : my upshift is very fast.too fast. enfact. the TC kick in between 4-5-6 . stalling the car. So i will reuqest a smoother transition at least between 5-6. ( i know it will generate more heat) .Downshifting is awful and the real achilles' heel . I will try a faster and harsher downshifting. right now it looks like my granma downshifting lol
attached my next solution for running 24-7 the fluid to the cooler ( instead waiting the 195f) .i will do it after i test the pan. again temps were great till they weren't anymore cause lockup clutch failed. and slipped.
Grant 302
basic and well known psychic
You don’t run with the traction control off?
Maybe you’ve already checked...does the GM converter fit? Assuming it has a better lockup?
And it might be a bit weird, and from what I understand the stock converter is pretty ‘tight’. But I’d ask Circle D and Suncoast if they could build something ‘tighter’ (lower stall). I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if they can’t or won’t because of the smaller diameters. I’d also like to see what makes the Suncoast lockup stronger. And it looks like it’s $3,500 plus an $800 core charge?
Just some random thoughts...because I haven’t looked into any 10R specifics yet.
Maybe you’ve already checked...does the GM converter fit? Assuming it has a better lockup?
And it might be a bit weird, and from what I understand the stock converter is pretty ‘tight’. But I’d ask Circle D and Suncoast if they could build something ‘tighter’ (lower stall). I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if they can’t or won’t because of the smaller diameters. I’d also like to see what makes the Suncoast lockup stronger. And it looks like it’s $3,500 plus an $800 core charge?
Just some random thoughts...because I haven’t looked into any 10R specifics yet.
I ran with track mode so the TC is 15% on.
BUT THE HARSH shifting create TC to kick in. In straight line full acceleration.
So a smoother 5-6 should fix it.
I was actually thinking to run the f150 TC cause is bigger. Meaning also a bigger lovk up clutch. So more surface more grip less failure. But is heavier so i might loose lots of power or momentum.
I don't know. 3500 is a lot of money for so enthing never ever tested on roadcourse. Is expensive bet and honestly not sure those people are interested in developing a roadcourse TC.
BUT THE HARSH shifting create TC to kick in. In straight line full acceleration.
So a smoother 5-6 should fix it.
I was actually thinking to run the f150 TC cause is bigger. Meaning also a bigger lovk up clutch. So more surface more grip less failure. But is heavier so i might loose lots of power or momentum.
I don't know. 3500 is a lot of money for so enthing never ever tested on roadcourse. Is expensive bet and honestly not sure those people are interested in developing a roadcourse TC.
????
Whoa! My car is a 2019 GT A10 base group 300A with PP1. I only have "S" on shifter and 1 button to turn Traction control and stability control off! I do not have drive modes in the higher packages. My car rev match downshifts so smooth I can't feel it. I can feel the upshifts but they are very smooth too. I'm hoping that going off stock muffler will increase the engine noise so I can hear the downshifts shifts. Is it possible that the base A10 has a completely different control system strategy that makes it better for the track?
I'm surprised Flyhalf is not driving with all nannies off. We know the sport/track programing is conservative. Perhaps the A10 control strategy is more complex and tailored to each drive mode. Perhaps the A10 is not functioning because Flyhalf is exceeding the programing just like we can all agree you can't track in normal street mode once you get past being a novice driver. Can the higher package A10 cars turn all driver aids off?
In my 300A base only has normal street, sport, and everything off. The owner's manual says the shift strategy is different in "S" then varies again when used with paddles only. I race paddles only and all driver aids off. Could that simple request be the key to best A10 function? I know if I forget and go out on track in normal I do get harsher shifting because of the feedback of TC and Stability control. I can instantly feel it and I'll be the dork fumbling with cockpit controls to turn everything off. It takes 5 seconds button hold to do it.
Premium package cars have 7 drive modes! Do they have an 8th everything off? Can the complex control strategy contribute Flyhalf's shifting problems?
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in the 700R4 we took the lockup function out of the trans, it sounds counterintuitive but the fact that the converter did lock up created more heat than if it had some built in slippage. Basically we did 2 things, we made the converter lock up and release in each gear, essentially making it a 6 speed trans, that didn't work so well, it was just too busy to get down the track. The second thing we did, in order to get rid of heat, was to put a manual switch in the car so you could lock/unlock the converter when you wanted to. This let you drive it around town but flip the lockup on for highway cruising. These cars made plenty power so heat was always a problem.
and Paul Forte, NHRA hall of famer and owner of Turbo Action is where I get my info from.
Turbo Action Racing and Performance - Racing shifters, transmissions, converters, valve bodies, cheetah e-shift!
Also a conversation with John Heinricy indicated that the zoomy GM trans, based on the same as the Ford, would also overheat after several high speed laps at the track. I think the out of the box answer, like I said before, is to
1. try to unlock the convertor (I suspect that the lock up is causing a "dead head" of fluid and it is trying to boil, or something similar.
2. run an external pump/cooling scheme, probably getting rid of the thermostat, but I'm not positive I would completely do away with it.
I would take the info that Flyhalf has accumulated and work with it, so far, it is the most comprehensive list I've seen, trying to get an automatic to work. It seems like this trans is great for magazine editors and road tests where the car is not beat on for an hour or more.. so it looks good on paper. Racing.. not so much
and Paul Forte, NHRA hall of famer and owner of Turbo Action is where I get my info from.
Turbo Action Racing and Performance - Racing shifters, transmissions, converters, valve bodies, cheetah e-shift!
Also a conversation with John Heinricy indicated that the zoomy GM trans, based on the same as the Ford, would also overheat after several high speed laps at the track. I think the out of the box answer, like I said before, is to
1. try to unlock the convertor (I suspect that the lock up is causing a "dead head" of fluid and it is trying to boil, or something similar.
2. run an external pump/cooling scheme, probably getting rid of the thermostat, but I'm not positive I would completely do away with it.
I would take the info that Flyhalf has accumulated and work with it, so far, it is the most comprehensive list I've seen, trying to get an automatic to work. It seems like this trans is great for magazine editors and road tests where the car is not beat on for an hour or more.. so it looks good on paper. Racing.. not so much
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Norm Peterson
Corner Barstool Sitter
It is all about speed.
If i slow down 2-3 sec per lap i can run this car forever.
The car is matching 350R records /speed with faster drivers on it. So car is fast.
I. E.
Laguna. 1.36 .2 is what randy did in a 350R.
I did 36.6 but cause I f****d up in a couple of situation. Car as at least another full second. And with 60f i can beat the car for 15-20min at this pace.
If i run 38-39 nothing will overheat.
Different is when out is 100f. But i guess with 100f many cars will suffer anyway.
If i slow down 2-3 sec per lap i can run this car forever.
The car is matching 350R records /speed with faster drivers on it. So car is fast.
I. E.
Laguna. 1.36 .2 is what randy did in a 350R.
I did 36.6 but cause I f****d up in a couple of situation. Car as at least another full second. And with 60f i can beat the car for 15-20min at this pace.
If i run 38-39 nothing will overheat.
Different is when out is 100f. But i guess with 100f many cars will suffer anyway.
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