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S197 Black Panda Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
5,897
4,505
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Noticed you mentioned beating quite a few Porsches with your V6 Powered Panda, I bet many of them can hardly "Bear " it?! Sorry , pun intended, but they have got to start pushing their Porsches or it sounds like the Panda prevails!
 
22
16
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Texas
Keep the puns coming! They leave me behind in the straightaways; but, I catch them on the technical sections. We are all in the Blue Solo level and is absolutely epic to find drivers at my level as we keep pushing ourselves. My main track is MSR Houston and every time I go there I drop about 1.5 to 2 seconds from my previous event. I plan to do the same when I go in January now that I will be making the jump to the 4pot brembos with track pads. Below was my favorite 40 second snipet from the entire event. It was a full throttle pass of a Cayman R then unto catching up to a Boxter!

 
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22
16
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Texas
Ok gentlepeople, I just went the 4 piston brake route. I also installed Titanium backing plates I purchased from a dude on ebay. I still need to do a better bleeding on them since I have a rather soft pedal when I brake at just 30mph. And as yall can see from the pics, I definitely gave those 2 piston calipers a proper incineration process after 6 track weekends! Probably unsafe if I am honest:nono:.

Also, If somebody could chime in on how to properly bleed a SS clutch line I made myself (which may be the cause), that would be excellent. Clutch pedal is dead about 50% of travel. I shall also check this tomorrow.

IMG_20220105_111157.jpg

IMG_20220105_111209.jpg

IMG_20220105_152044.jpg

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TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
6,358
3,441
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Illinois
Clutch bleed required vacuum. Makes no sense, I know. Put a plug/cap on the master and pull a vacuum. A mityvac pump is what I use. The air should pull into the reservoir. Factory says pump pedal 50+ times, repeat until bled. Works some time, some times no.
A rubber stopper with a hole from a home improvement center should work. Measure before you go. Drill a hole through the stopper, plug in the hole from the pump, stick stopper in top of reservoir. Hold a vacuum for a minute of so and pump pedal.
good luck.
 
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Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
5,897
4,505
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Great advice from TMS and I would also check on the one item you mentioned that had you questioning the issue, and that was the SS brake lines you made yourself. The custom made ones are not too expensive but they are form fitted to avoid bends or kinks in the lines, plus they have extremely tight fittings. Any of those things on your homemade ones could be a culprit too, but a solid flush is likely your biggest concern.
 
22
16
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Texas
Clutch bleed required vacuum. Makes no sense, I know. Put a plug/cap on the master and pull a vacuum. A mityvac pump is what I use. The air should pull into the reservoir. Factory says pump pedal 50+ times, repeat until bled. Works some time, some times no.
A rubber stopper with a hole from a home improvement center should work. Measure before you go. Drill a hole through the stopper, plug in the hole from the pump, stick stopper in top of reservoir. Hold a vacuum for a minute of so and pump pedal.
good luck.
Thank you sir, I shall give this a try today. I do have a little mityvac pump somewhere here.
Great advice from TMS and I would also check on the one item you mentioned that had you questioning the issue, and that was the SS brake lines you made yourself. The custom made ones are not too expensive but they are form fitted to avoid bends or kinks in the lines, plus they have extremely tight fittings. Any of those things on your homemade ones could be a culprit too, but a solid flush is likely your biggest concern.
Yep, I know cortex has some ss clutch lines on sale and if all fails I shall snag one of those puppies. I need to get one since the oem plastic one sprays black particles all over my brand new brake fluid.
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,574
2,444
Arizona, USA
You can also bleed the clutch (not as efficiently, but no tools required) by elevating the driver's front corner of the car, removing the reservoir cap, and pumping the clutch pedal 20-50X...or more, until the pedal feels right. I have done it this way every time the slave needs to be bled.
 
22
16
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Texas
Thank you for the suggestions gentlemen. I believe I got to the bottom of my issues. It appears that the mating surface between the AN hose-end fitting and the clutch line adapter is not sealing well. I saw that only the paint from the inside edge of the cone is worn off and not the entire mating surface. I did torque the fittings 1/4 turn after feeling tight. I applied vaccum to the clutch hose that leads into the reservoir (from the master cylinder) and as soon as I decreased the pressure to ~-18psi, a sudden (and massive) influx of bubbles would be generated. I believe this represents a very significant leak somewhere in the line.

I replaced the oem line and all is well now.

I will mess with my home-made SS line this weekend and bench-pressure test it to determine exactly where it is leaking and why. I really don't want those black floaters in my brake lines.

Oh, and I should add that the brakes are working exceptionally now, thanks to a second set of legs from my Papa.
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
450
449
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
You probably know this, but AN fittings are 37 degrees and most other flare fittings are 45 degrees. You might try sealing your leaking connection with an AN conical seal.
 
22
16
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Texas
You probably know this, but AN fittings are 37 degrees and most other flare fittings are 45 degrees. You might try sealing your leaking connection with an AN conical seal.
Thank you sir. I did not know these existed. This is a very excellent suggestion! I will buy a set of these and give them a try. I hope they get here before my next event this upcoming weekend. I am very new to AN fittings and assumed that the clutch fitting would have the same angle of seal.

I had a recent experience during the installation of my Oil accumulator. I ran into an issue where two -12AN fittings did not seal well and a tiny leak developed even with correct torquing. It eventually stopped leaking during the first track event. My guess is that the vibrations somehow ended up molding the inner aluminum flaring into place.
 
22
16
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Texas
Well, those 4 pots were AMAZING this past weekend:sneaky:. 0, zero, nada, nill, nein brake issues, brake fade or nothing. I actually locked the front tires during my first session and about 5 times in a hard off-camber corner, which the stock calipers never could manage. I used the hawk DTC-60 brake pads and can say that they do indeed destroy rotors; but I already had them and could not return them since I bought them on ebay. I shall go to Pagid next, gotta look at that price to performance ratio and not just the upfront cost.

Now my biggest enemy is understeer. It is not a lot but I do develop pushing after 3 hard laps in fast long (~15 seconds) sweepers (~80mph) mid corner. I plan to mess around with my coilover settings, tire pressure, tire temps, alignment (I finally succumbed to purchasing a pyrometer and white paint) and rear ride height. So I shall devote much of my next event to setup and record-keeping. I was able to drop my lap times by almost 6 seconds at MSRH since the last time I went CCW, which is absolutely bonkers! I got to the limit so much closer that advance trac reactivated itself, which is a first for me. Black Panda was probably saying: This nut is getting too nutty:hmmm:.I plan to disable it completely next time I go to track. Traction control and stability control are very annoying in the mustang. They are extremely limiting.

Furthermore peeps, I am gonna kill my Nankang NS-2R during my next event. They have served my well but the cheepo Federal 595-RS-Pro had a stiffer sidewall. So in my small experience Nankang pros: Wear life is better (7 track days/28 heat cycles so far), soft sidewall feels forgiving; I need about -3 degree of camber or more and about 36-38 psi hot to avoid riding sidewall. Federal Pros: Cheap (In March of 2021(~$170 for a 275/35R18), now they are just as expensive as all the others), Stiffer sidewall. Federal cons: Wear life is worse (5 track days/20 heat cycles before cording), price to wear ratio is worse than the Naknang, even though they used to be ~35% cheaper.
Up next in line of destruction are the allegedly awesome Falken RT660 puppies. I shall give an update as to how they do in a few months.

Below is a sweet pic right before The Launch!

IMG_24191.JPG
 
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ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,574
2,444
Arizona, USA
Mid-corner stuff is difficult to correct since it is/should be after the car has already taken a set, the suspension has already done it's job. If that's the case, then you need adjustments in speed (going too fast), F/R Aero, or front camber. The good news is you should be able to correct a steady-state understeer by easing off the throttle or lifting to get the car pointed more in the correct direction.
 
22
16
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Texas
Mid-corner stuff is difficult to correct since it is/should be after the car has already taken a set, the suspension has already done it's job. If that's the case, then you need adjustments in speed (going too fast), F/R Aero, or front camber. The good news is you should be able to correct a steady-state understeer by easing off the throttle or lifting to get the car pointed more in the correct direction.
Understood sir. I need to mess with the car more. I plan to replace my cervini with an oem hood and install hood vents. I have been reading that they provide some amount of front downforce. And yes, I basically started to sacrifice mid corner speed for exit speed in that sweeper.

BTW, from your experience, can increasing the rear ride height shift weight rearward and help with understerer, or do I have my thoughts backwards?
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,574
2,444
Arizona, USA
A vented hood will be better than stock at high speeds for those issues, not sure how much you can quantify that but the principles are sound.
You are correct that increasing the rear ride height will help to shift vehicle balance toward neutral or oversteer compared to your current setup (as you are "extending" the lever that the weight of the car has on the rear suspension), but again, this will likely have the biggest effect in the corner entry phase as opposed to mid-corner.
You should put a test plan together of things to try and aim to change settings and figure out how the car works with each of those settings during your next track day. Stick to your plan and resist the urge to knee-jerk adjust "the other way"; you can do that after you have gathered your data. If you find things that don't work, you are still learning something useful.
 
310
305
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Snowy North
Mid-corner ON throttle or OFF throttle? Makes a big difference...

Have you made the apex and are getting to the gas...but you need to add wheel because you are pushing wide when the weight transfers aft/lose front grip?

Or ...or are you about to make the apex but see that you need to add wheel because you are pushing wide w/o touching the gas...too much energy at front contact patch?
 
Well, those 4 pots were AMAZING this past weekend:sneaky:. 0, zero, nada, nill, nein brake issues, brake fade or nothing. I actually locked the front tires during my first session and about 5 times in a hard off-camber corner, which the stock calipers never could manage. I used the hawk DTC-60 brake pads and can say that they do indeed destroy rotors; but I already had them and could not return them since I bought them on ebay. I shall go to Pagid next, gotta look at that price to performance ratio and not just the upfront cost.

Now my biggest enemy is understeer. It is not a lot but I do develop pushing after 3 hard laps in fast long (~15 seconds) sweepers (~80mph) mid corner. I plan to mess around with my coilover settings, tire pressure, tire temps, alignment (I finally succumbed to purchasing a pyrometer and white paint) and rear ride height. So I shall devote much of my next event to setup and record-keeping. I was able to drop my lap times by almost 6 seconds at MSRH since the last time I went CCW, which is absolutely bonkers! I got to the limit so much closer that advance trac reactivated itself, which is a first for me. Black Panda was probably saying: This nut is getting too nutty:hmmm:.I plan to disable it completely next time I go to track. Traction control and stability control are very annoying in the mustang. They are extremely limiting.

Furthermore peeps, I am gonna kill my Nankang NS-2R during my next event. They have served my well but the cheepo Federal 595-RS-Pro had a stiffer sidewall. So in my small experience Nankang pros: Wear life is better (7 track days/28 heat cycles so far), soft sidewall feels forgiving; I need about -3 degree of camber or more and about 36-38 psi hot to avoid riding sidewall. Federal Pros: Cheap (In March of 2021(~$170 for a 275/35R18), now they are just as expensive as all the others), Stiffer sidewall. Federal cons: Wear life is worse (5 track days/20 heat cycles before cording), price to wear ratio is worse than the Naknang, even though they used to be ~35% cheaper.
Up next in line of destruction are the allegedly awesome Falken RT660 puppies. I shall give an update as to how they do in a few months.

Below is a sweet pic right before The Launch!

View attachment 71940
Always great to see more people flogging the 3.7 ponies out on track!

As for the advancetrac problems with the 3.7, I can offer some insight as to what I've learned from my own build.

Option 1: Boss 302r ABS module will disable both permanently (as long as it is installed) and give you improved abs programming for track use. As far as I've read, the drawbacks are that this module will light the dash up like a Christmas tree along with a chime. I found this option undesirable as my car sees extensive street use in all 4 seasons in the Northeast

Option 2: A "track" tune which will disable advancetrac. A few members have had success getting their coyote cars setup with a track tune by AED, but upon inquiry Shaun would not remotely track tune a 3.7 car. The other two major tuning houses for the 3.7, MPT nor AMR, would not help either. Eventually I found Ortiz Performance out of Texas and they were able to provide exactly what I was looking for: a specific track tune to disable advancetrac that I could flash using my SCT handheld at events and remove after the event to regain full advancetrac/traction control for the street.

Hope that helps when you are ready to take things to the next level and disable the electronic nannies

Looking forward to following you progress
-J
 

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