Electric cars... the cons

[Mad Hatter]

Dont mind me, guess I was gripping over the long gone day when, as kids, we HAD to do our own work if we wanted a car... Once you got to driving age the most important thing in the world was to get a driving permit and a car (probably more to do with girls though..).

My brother and I built our first engine when I was 18 and those rudimentary skills we learned stuck with me when I ended up running a mine much later. Most of the young engineers I work with now need help changing the light bulb in their cars.

Not that I pretend to be a mechanic!! But we are loosing those basic skills

 

[Bill Pemberton]

The older I get the more I find myself mellowing and trying to base my thought processes on reality instead of fear or skepticism. I actually believe what is happening now is great for the US, because it seems in my lifetime every time we have major changes we complain a lot , but then we buckle down and figure out what will really work. So many are acting like this situation with electrification is new and the reality is we have been trending towards alternative energy sources since the 80s ( or even before, think of the Chrysler Turbine ). You picked up a Popular Mechanics in the 70s and read articles about cars that would run on water, or trick carburetor modifications that would improve your fuel mileage off scale. Here we are 4 decades later and it has not all come to fruition, but we are now driving internal combustion performance machines and getting mpg figures in the mid 20s. Nine miles to the gallon was what we got in the family 440 Chrysler 300, so all the regulations and rules often have caused new breakthroughs with automotive technology. We , as humans , hate change, we are comfortable in our skin when everything is what we know and relate to, yet Americans have had the most dynamic power to effect change in the World for over a Century. I often chat with friends about why they are afraid of change when the reality is it never seems to come about as quickly as feared , and it usually has consequences that make things better. Baby Boomers screamed and cried that the " Muscle Car Era " was over and the reality is the Performance Phase of the Automobile has been on a tear that is decades longer than the initial era of hp excitement. I often think of the 80s and how the fuel crisis was insane for enthusiasts and I know if EVs came out then we would have warmed to them immediately. Today, we are seeing a surge in technology that is unprecedented, and though we focus on electrification we have whole segments working on Hydrogen ( check Plug Power Stock ) , hybridization, and cleaner burning combustion machines. Combustion machines may see more movement towards alternative fuel additives or usage, whether more blended fuels or even synthetic. Reality often is viewed with hindsight, and the World today is proof humans do not learn from their history, but throw fear aside and look at what could be in our future and economics will ensure it is a blend of many forms. I see the next 50 years with cars running on solar, hydrogen, synthetic fuels, electrification, or a blend of many. Heck, if someone told me 10 years ago that EVs would become a viable transportation source I would have told them it was years in the future , but even now there are different sources of battery power elements being explored that it makes one wonder what might happen in the coming years? Could we see a breakthrough in " Fusion " that would be a safer and more manageable that it could power vehicles? I do not know, but I sure didn't see electrics in my lifetime, either. Third World countries and the constant slower pace of infrastructure in the US and the World , are the reality I view making the change away from combustion many years off. Think how many Presidents have promised to get infrastructure back on track and we are talking untold years of little or no movement. That reality will likely be the biggest factor in keeping our Mustangs rumbling well, well , into the future. Yes, my glass is half full, but age does not make your wiser unless you stand back and view your experiences with what actually happened not what change might preclude --just my humble opinion.

 

[That11GtGuy]

Back in my day son.... lol
You used to rebuild EVERYTHING, fuel pumps, window motors, starters and even their solenoids, virtually every part on the car was rebuildable, and you could get small parts kits for all of it. Now days, you can't find a rebuild kit for anything.

Just a quick detour to comment on this...I totally agree. Its really interesting, and sad, that we as a society have moved away from the idea of fixing something. Its now the ideology of "just throw it out and buy a new one" or "I'll pay someone else to do it". Both of which are pretty toxic ideologies. I'm a psych major in college, so I've actually done some reading on this, and there are some studies that show that people are genuinely becoming less intelligent as other people do everything for them, which does, of course, make sense. I get specialized labor and the need for it to sustain an economy, but I used to rebuild carburetors on my dad's boat, which taught me how the darn thing worked, and now people walk around ignorant to how so many things function because they just buy a new one.

 

[302BOB]

We all have lots to recall from our past experiences, that for sure!!!...The older you get, the more you appreciate the things you been thru...drive on.............

 

[Mad Hatter]

Too borrow from Monty Python......Always look on the bright side of Life!!

 

[302BOB]

..Always look on the bright side of Life!!

The other side might not be as pleasant............but you can always hope..................

 

[blacksheep-1]

Not afraid of change, just change for the sake of change. That is problematic, because the issues that will need to be resolved are unknown, where evolutionary change generally means the issues are solved as they are met.
I'm one that lived through the muscle car era, in 1982 you could buy a Boss 302 for $4K, a GTO for $1500, etc.. etc. my 78 Z28 had a roaring 150HP 350 in it. (until it got out of warranty, but that's another story) so it was awesome to see the resurgence of the muscle car in the late 90ish years. It just took technology that long to catch up with the regulation. That's why I question change for the sake of change.. and the problems to be encountered. We're not just talking ICE engines this time, we're going to create and entire new infrastructure, fuel, ability to carry weight, range.. everything is going to be "winged" .
and it's unnecessary.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I think we agree to disagree because the entire new infrastructure is not the reality, and unlike the past we are not scrambling from nothing we already have a big start. I believe where we differ in thought is I don't see it as EV vs Combustion , but a combination of EV, Combustion ( gas, diesel, hydrogen, synthetic ) , hybrids, etc. The reality is the Infrastructure will not happen overnight, on that we are in unison, but things have been changing for quite awhile ( hybridization from consumer vehicles to F1 has been around for years ) and the work to add another component to vehicle travel will not be dire since it has been happening right before our eyes. With large Corporations investing in Hydrogen powered transport machines ( Walmart, Amazon to name a couple ) the change in how we move will cover many different modes. I have to believe we have the ability to make improvements, technology wise, at a much faster pace than in the 80s or 90s. In fact studies in all areas are showing the rapid developement in which things occur than in the last 20 years. I seem to have read that more advancements have been made in this Century than in all the Centuries combined. If someone told you and I, in the 80s , we would have a voice activated computer talking to us we would have just laughed. I love my 105 decibel screaming pony , but the final reality to what is going to occur concerns you and I ------consumers will also slow the infrastructure change. Porsche told all of us they would be discontinuing the manual transmission and bingo they brought it back, primarily for the US market . Ironic when the majority of the drivers in our Country can not drive a manual , and yet everyone is Europe knows how to but they made no waves. Great article in Motor Trend talking about how performance drivers and purists in the US demanded the manual stay with Porsche and it came back just for us. I am just optimistic the gas machines will be around for quite awhile due to the Oil Industry ( huge petroleum companies , many Countries economy based on such) , consumers, millions of vehicles still on the roads, Third World Countries where Infrastructure is still struggling to get out of the last Century, hybrids, and advancement in combustion efficiencies. Dodge told us they had major issues with meeting the EPA requirements with the honking V10 in the Viper and in 2010 it went for a rest, yet 2013 saw the 8.4 liter back till 2017, pumping out within the air quality guidelines. Gotta believe there are still more advancements since every time we here nothing else can be done , the Manufacturers figure out something new.

I think we are all working ourselves into a frenzy because we as a society are becoming so conditioned to fear, that we are not pausing to see these changes can't happen overnight. I remember the furor over catalytic converters and all the doomsayers back then and then we went for 20 years or more hearing cars were not going to last on ethanol fuel. Just my opinion that we will see a combination of power sources and it will not be either EV or Gas/Diesel engines, it will be numerous possibilities.

 

[Fat Boss]

So from what I gather, someone from California needs to advise, that you can no longer get a new house built using gas appliances, it all has to be electric??!!.
So one of the cleanest forms of energy, you can no longer use, but have to be connected to the government regulated grid?
Also, i travelled across country in the hauler from Pa to Long Beach. We stopped at a truck stop that had about 250 trucks in it. There were 3 more of these on each of the 4 corners of the cloverleaf. Over 1K trucks at this cloverleaf alone. That's a crap ton of goods and merchandise that has to be transported, and how is electric going to do that?
Even trains are diesel electric hybrids.
This whole thing sounds like massive government over reach

There are in fact some cities that are not allowing new construction with natural gas. But, it's not statewide- yet. I really miss my natural gas. My "new" house was built 50 years ago and has never had natural gas. It used to have a propane tank, but I had it out with the propane company and had them come pick up their tank. Everything in the house is now electric, and I have an 8KW solar system on the roof. I don't have any batteries so I'm at risk of power outages, but last year I bought a 2nd generator and have yet to have to use it.

As for the semi's, Elon has a plan for them. The efficiency of an electric truck over a diesel is a compelling argument, especially one that stops and goes.

The train sector is interesting. You could easily have "battery cars" that are very easily interchangeable, allowing for short stops to switch battery cars.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Agree, change for the sake of Change is destructive. Who ran on that slogan?? Can't remember.....sort of.

Manufacturers are assembling fuel pumps as one sealed unit mostly because they are better built at a lessor cost. Having a machine form a single unit is more accurate than having a person screw in screws one at a time on a line. Ask me how I know.
I remember working on electric generators in a 12v systems. Simple, heavy and rebuildable. They have over twice the copper and a whole lot more steel in them. They DID NOT work better. They were just easier to Re-Build.
Back when I was busy walking up hill to and from school in a blinding blizzard...we just did more. As every generation before us reminded us of on a regular basis. Sure am glad I aint gettin old.

 

[xr7]

Back in my day son.... lol
You used to rebuild EVERYTHING, fuel pumps, window motors, starters and even their solenoids, virtually every part on the car was rebuildable, and you could get small parts kits for all of it. Now days, you can't find a rebuild kit for anything.

My favorite pain in the ass repair was the generator on my 63 Ford. The first time I pulled it to repair it, I think it took me about 2 hours just to get the damn thing off. Eventually I got it down to doing a complete swap in about 15 minutes. I even carried the tools and spare gen it the trunk. Fix one while the other was at work. Finally I got smart and swapped in an alternator. I guess a 4spd, 5000rpm shifts and cruising at 80mph was not helping the generator life cycle. My dad also had a 63 Ford at the same time and his generator seemed to last for ever. When it did finally fail I swapped in an alternator for him.

 

[302BOB]

Back when I was busy walking up hill to and from school in a blinding blizzard...we just did more. As every generation before us reminded us of on a regular basis. Sure am glad I aint gettin old.

Staying young walking to and from school in a blizzard will always be a feather in your cap!!!.....

 

[blacksheep-1]

My favorite pain in the ass repair was the generator on my 63 Ford. The first time I pulled it to repair it, I think it took me about 2 hours just to get the damn thing off. Eventually I got it down to doing a complete swap in about 15 minutes. I even carried the tools and spare gen it the trunk. Fix one while the other was at work. Finally I got smart and swapped in an alternator. I guess a 4spd, 5000rpm shifts and cruising at 80mph was not helping the generator life cycle. My dad also had a 63 Ford at the same time and his generator seemed to last for ever. When it did finally fail I swapped in an alternator for him.

lolol... I used to run my dual quad 331, 5.13 geared , 56 Chevy with the hood off on test runs, I watched the little arc start, then work it's way all the way around the back of the generator, then the amp gauge lit... done. 7500 was all she wrote.
I came to the same conclusion you did.. alternator

 

[PatrickStapler]

I check my spark plugs and adjust valve lash after every event....

 

[Norm Peterson]

... We , as humans , hate change, we are comfortable in our skin when everything is what we know and relate to, yet Americans have had the most dynamic power to effect change in the World for over a Century. I often chat with friends about why they are afraid of change when the reality is it never seems to come about as quickly as feared , and it usually has consequences that make things better. Baby Boomers screamed and cried that the " Muscle Car Era " was over and the reality is the Performance Phase of the Automobile has been on a tear that is decades longer than the initial era of hp excitement. I often think of the 80s and how the fuel crisis was insane for enthusiasts and I know if EVs came out then we would have warmed to them immediately.

I doubt we'd have even been as willing to accept EVs back then as is only beginning to happen today. It would have been a more revolutionary change than it is now if by some miracle we could have dragged today's battery technology back in time, and a non-starter if we remained mired in lead-acid technology. No way could the time have been right.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think we are all working ourselves into a frenzy because we as a society are becoming so conditioned to fear, that we are not pausing to see these changes can't happen overnight. I remember the furor over catalytic converters and all the doomsayers back then and then we went for 20 years or more hearing cars were not going to last on ethanol fuel. Just my opinion that we will see a combination of power sources and it will not be either EV or Gas/Diesel engines, it will be numerous possibilities.

I get what you're saying, that so many things these days are being pitched on making people fear the alternative. Buy those extended warranties, get insurance for everything we can think of, believe in your heart that fear is always the better part of wisdom, etc. Makes me glad I was a child of the 1950s.

The issue with EVs is that the stronger proponents of those things have no tolerance for differing opinions, no acceptance of "making exceptions", and no patience for slower acceptance of change by the rest of us.


Norm

 

[TMSBOSS]

The issue with EVs is that the stronger proponents of those things have no tolerance for differing opinions, no acceptance of "making exceptions", and no patience for slow acceptance of change by the rest of us.

Not sure you can limit this lack of tolerance to EV's. The foundation of our government is built on compromise. If a change is not acceptable to the many, don't make the change. Wise concept. When a "Simple Majority" feels they have the right to push change the simple minority, at time 49% of the population feels they had something forces upon them. The fight for that one percent then gets ugly. The market often is the best place to see change accepted.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Norm I know it sounds far fetched, but it was just an observation on the human condition back then. Folks were in a panic mode that did not make any sense and irrational fears prompted some crazy business. I can remember flying with 4 other Salesman a couple of times to pick up new Hondas from Dealers over 500 miles distance. We drove them all back and the Dealership tacked on $ 500 over MSRP on each car. Frankly, even though that was a pretty penny back in the late 70s, folks were backed up and each time we did it they were sold out before we even arrived back. Totally nuts , since this was in Kansas and there were never the gas lines down the street and around the block like in many parts of the Country. The craziness then was why I postulated an EV might have sold like hotcakes, we had so many customers thinking they would run out of fuel with no basis in the State they lived in.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Not sure you can limit this lack of tolerance to EV's.

Not trying to. I'm just applying it to the topic at hand.


Norm

 

[carver]