Coyote s197 Vs base c6 vette

[Midtownz06]

Looking to get back into the track in the near future and trying to keep it budget oriented but still have good power.

would a coyote s197 that I do most of the Billy Johnson “400whp track car” mods be a better (faster) option than a base c6 vette I leave stock except for upgraded pads and wheels/tires.

The thought with the vette is it’s 10 grand more but I get a genuinely good transmission and start at 400lbs less weight.

downside is they look like turds , generate lift compared to the mild boss aero and steeda wing setup, will have soft factory suspension and the headroom isn’t as good as a mustang but I think a race mount seat will fix that.

 

[PatientZero]

Looking to get back into the track in the near future and trying to keep it budget oriented but still have good power.

would a coyote s197 that I do most of the Billy Johnson “400whp track car” mods be a better (faster) option than a base c6 vette I leave stock except for upgraded pads and wheels/tires.

The thought with the vette is it’s 10 grand more but I get a genuinely good transmission and start at 400lbs less weight.

downside is they look like turds , generate lift compared to the mild boss aero and steeda wing setup, will have soft factory suspension and the headroom isn’t as good as a mustang but I think a race mount seat will fix that.

What year Corvette are you considering? LS2 or LS3?

I'd lean toward the Corvette. That platform is just extraordinary bang for the buck(see Justin Peachey or Feras Quartumey). I think you run into "Corvette Tax" on a lot of stuff making mods more expensive but I also think it will hold it's value longer and of course what you can do with an LS motor is endless.
I think which one is faster will ultimately depend on the driver and the track so I wouldn't put much stock in that. Either one will be plenty fast.
Why are you not considering a S550?

 

[stevbd]

I agree with @PatientZero, I love the S197 and personally prefer it but for straight out track performance I think the C6 vette is generally in a different league. 400 lbs is a lot and all the big parts are located in the right spots compared to the Mustang. Physics matters at some point.

 

[Midtownz06]

I don’t think it’s worth what people are trying to get for them and I like the first Gen coyote looks so didn’t think about the s550 at all. Would it be better than the c6 base model ?

also isn’t feras running a z06 with massive aero and a sequential transmission with twin turbos? I think you could make even a camaro fast if you did that.

I would get the ls3 with the tremec TR 6060 I think the mt82 issues is really throwing a wrench in my plans for a cheap track car that im having to consider a $10,000 more expensive older vette just to avoid it

 

[302BOB]

Boys, Never forget the Pilot navigates the ship....his ship is under his command.....may the best ship win the race...................Why is that lime green Camaro convertible parked in front of my castle??.............I know whose it is....The color adds a flair to the neighborhood.........my CO Boss can't be outside all the time...............

 

[Midtownz06]

Would the mustang be better from a driver development perspective? When I had my c7 z06 I was in a constant of not really improving because it was just so fast and powerful but the two cars here are similar power.

 

[Mad Hatter]

One thing to think about is working on the car... The Vette checks all the right box's for the track til you have to change something serious.. We can have the tranny and/or motor out of the car of my boss in about 6 hours work. Try to do that on a C6 vette!! Watched my friend do it on his Z06 and was shocked at the amount of work required (so was he!).

But it was pretty dam fast at the track... The one day it ran... blown engine and seized brake calipers were the result after a very fast lap time.

 

[blacksheep-1]

One thing to think about is working on the car... The Vette checks all the right box's for the track til you have to change something serious.. We can have the tranny and/or motor out of the car of my boss in about 6 hours work. Try to do that on a C6 vette!! Watched my friend do it on his Z06 and was shocked at the amount of work required (so was he!).

But it was pretty dam fast at the track... The one day it ran... blown engine and seized brake calipers were the result after a very fast lap time.

Having been forced to do 3 clutches in those vettes in 1 run off weekend, they can crush every one of those IMO. If it has a decent set of headers you will have to drop the front cradle as well... then it all has to go back on the scales for a new alignment. Total PITA.
You basically have the fiberglass on the jackstands by itself.
That being said, it's a good car but it's a 2 seater sports car vs a 4 seater sedan, it should be faster.
Nothing I like more than beating vettes, with the exception of beating Porsches.

 

[Midtownz06]

Having been forced to do 3 clutches in those vettes in 1 run off weekend, they can crush every one of those IMO. If it has a decent set of headers you will have to drop the front cradle as well... then it all has to go back on the scales for a new alignment. Total PITA.
You basically have the fiberglass on the jackstands by itself.
That being said, it's a good car but it's a 2 seater sports car vs a 4 seater sedan, it should be faster.
Nothing I like more than beating vettes, with the exception of beating Porsches.

I don’t think I will do anything besides my own tire pressure changes, brake bleeding, oil/fluids, and taking wheels to tire shop to change

 

[Mad Hatter]

I don’t think I will do anything besides my own tire pressure changes, brake bleeding, oil/fluids, and taking wheels to tire shop to change

In the end, the shop bill will reflect the work done... The vette will be double for any major work. Both great cars.

 

[JDee]

The 'vette is an old guy's car. My spouse has a vette and belongs to a club. A big day for them is a cruise where they go out for lunch and drive along the highway in a line at the speed limit (or less). Most of them are automatics, in fact I can't think of one that is a manual. They would not under any circumstances take their cars to the track. Most of them don't follow racing much, or if they do it's casual. I would say that less than 10% of the members are under the age of 65. Every now and then they'll rev the motor up and make noise while sitting still. That's about it. Nice people, but the cars are just wasted.

 

[mavisky]

If all I cared about was track times, the Corvette would 100% be the choice over the Mustang. Only get the Mustang if your budget simply doesn't allow the C6 or you need the back seats for some reason.

 

[blacksheep-1]

The 'vette is an old guy's car. My spouse has a vette and belongs to a club. A big day for them is a cruise where they go out for lunch and drive along the highway in a line at the speed limit (or less). Most of them are automatics, in fact I can't think of one that is a manual. They would not under any circumstances take their cars to the track. Most of them don't follow racing much, or if they do it's casual. I would say that less than 10% of the members are under the age of 65. Every now and then they'll rev the motor up and make noise while sitting still. That's about it. Nice people, but the cars are just wasted.

Dude, I don't think I've ever seen it expressed so eloquently, you are spot on. (although I do take some exception to the "old guy" part, I guess I don't really fit that mold..lol I hope I never do)

 

[JDee]

Dude, I don't think I've ever seen it expressed so eloquently, you are spot on. (although I do take some exception to the "old guy" part, I guess I don't really fit that mold..lol I hope I never do)

I take some exception to that as well, since I'm for sure an "old guy".
When the first digit in your age is 7, you are either really young or really old!
Gotta run, time for my 5 mile daily walk. Gotta keep in shape to kick the butts of those young whippersnappers in their 'vettes!

 

[mavisky]

I've seen just as many old guys in Mustangs with lawn chairs. When I go to track days they Corvettes usually outnumber the Mustangs 2:1 and they sell far fewer Corvettes.

 

[PatientZero]

We're talking about the cars here people, not the people who buy them.

Plenty of dipshits in Mustangs killing crowds at Cars & Coffee and boomers with New Balances hardparked at your local car show in a yellow, convertible, automatic C5.

 

[ShifterX]

C6 starts at a higher level, no question. Even base form or Z51 its pretty competitive. The chassis is ready for final tuning. When I had one (many years ago) a simple suspension tune was all you needed. At the time I went with a Phadt Johnny O'Connell suspension setup and even with the stock run craps the car was impressive. I only did a little track work and because of personal reasons I sold it. The person I sold it to did a bunch of track days with it and loved it.

I just got into a S197 Coyote now and I can say its much more of a blank slate. While you can skip to the final spring/damper/sway tuning it seems the best results are coming from some chassis engineering. Typical of most mustangs and many non-M BMWs, you have to start with swapping out OEM bushings for something with lower compliance. S197 seems to benefit from aggressive lowering and playing with roll centers / instant center. Many more directions you can go in.

My instinct is a well sorted and setup S197 Coyote with the minimum rubber (285 x 4) would be in competitive striking distance of a C6.

 

[JDee]

C6 starts at a higher level, no question. Even base form or Z51 its pretty competitive. The chassis is ready for final tuning. When I had one (many years ago) a simple suspension tune was all you needed. At the time I went with a Phadt Johnny O'Connell suspension setup and even with the stock run craps the car was impressive. I only did a little track work and because of personal reasons I sold it. The person I sold it to did a bunch of track days with it and loved it.

I just got into a S197 Coyote now and I can say its much more of a blank slate. While you can skip to the final spring/damper/sway tuning it seems the best results are coming from some chassis engineering. Typical of most mustangs and many non-M BMWs, you have to start with swapping out OEM bushings for something with lower compliance. S197 seems to benefit from aggressive lowering and playing with roll centers / instant center. Many more directions you can go in.

My instinct is a well sorted and setup S197 Coyote with the minimum rubber (285 x 4) would be in competitive striking distance of a C6.

I beg to differ. 'Vette is lighter and the HP is about the same. 'Vette CG is better as well. The 'Vette rear end is better than a stick axle 'stang and at least as good as an IRS S550 if not better. 'Vette is both lower and wider than 'stang.

I had solid bushings everywhere, zero compliance in the suspension and the full Ford racing track suspension. Car was totally gutted with lightweight racing seats. While I could stay with 'Vettes in corners they would simply kill me on the straights.

I would never offer to take on a 'vette with my S550 'stang, if the driver factor was equal. I run in Open class and there's several 'vettes in there. The well driven ones are more than a match for my 'stang, even when I'm on 305 slicks. And then there's the ACR Viper that shows up now and then, which generally eats the Vettes. Always going to be something faster that comes along.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I guess in the end it comes down to the Driver and how well setup the car is. A perfect example is on the TMO track time thread. @treynor and @Aquilante have almost the same times at 1:30.xx at Laguna Seca in very different Mustangs. Fantastic times! A Vette or Viper would have to be driven hard and well put to put down a faster time. For reference, that's the same as Randy Pobst in a Maclaren P1...

 

[ShifterX]

Maybe I should qualify my remarks. In heads up racing with comparable classed drivers, the s197 or 550 driver would be at a significant disadvantage to any C6 because of the reasons you mentioned. I agree with you.

I was more thinking about HPDE, where I have found the skill range of drivers can vary widely even in the same class. A sorted coyote car has enough to play with C6s. The driver needs both wheel and setup skills.