High oil temp (overheating at track)

Discussion in 'Boss 302 and S197 Technical Forum' started by SGwick, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. chicagobob

    chicagobob TMO Beginner

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    Update, this year had multiple sessions at Road America and Autobahn tracks and the cooling fight continues The following is only slightly scientific, which kills me - unfortunately, track time for running true A to B’s and garage time for gaging installs are my constraints. Huge kudos to those on the forum who have good data – thank you.

    Vehicle: 2012 GT manual 3.73, Ford Performance radiator & high speed fan and Setrab 660 Oil cooler w/ setrab thermostat sandwich plate, oil temp gage pre-cooler and coolant temp is from OBD II (inferred), boss 302 lower fascia/small splitter, sct 93 octane tune

    Road America – early spring, outside temps near 50F, end of the session oil temps peak 250F (pre-cooler, calcs say should drop 50 to 90F depending on correction factor for airflow and oil/air temps), coolant temps (inferred) near 240F (gage straight up). Good news, oil temp looked good, bad news coolant temp improvement not a stepped improvement

    Road America – later spring, temps high 60’s by afternoon, end of session oil temps 255F, coolant temps now the problem getting up to 245F - borderline; had ready to go a AM billet grill (p/n 41124) and outside surround bezel from Rockauto (p/n FO1210105) just in case. Swapped grill between – knocked about 15F off the coolant temp, oil temp was the same. Was able to push the car with coolant temps getting up, but manageable.

    Autobahn – 70F, coolant temps started to get high late in sessions, but with some easier laps was manageable.

    So far good news on oil temps, coolant temps still a pain when outside temps getting higher

    Now the real challenge – Gingerman, 94F air temp, 60%+ humidity, the track has a large portions of the lap in 4th gear higher rpm. We are back to the world of pushing two hard laps and coolant temps in the red (245F+), oil temp peak in session peaked at 265F pre-cooler. Back to the coolant temp issue, but oil temps great.

    Open to additional options, but here are my thoughts on next steps:
    - Short term
    Take out the AM billet grill to increase airflow
    - Remove weather seal at the back of the hood to give some flow out of engine bay (although small)
    - Go to back to stock program, maybe the SCT tune is a bit leaner at high rpm increasing temps
    - Other options/questions:
    - Creating an airbox, still have the air conditioning condenser, so factory side box is still in place – anyone have success fully boxing and improvements?
    - Improved radiator – should have enough capacity, but others had better success with different radiators, how much of an improvement? Is it because of more restriction, i.e. does the water pump cavitate at high rpm causing flow issues and a multi pass puts more restriction helping decrease pump efficiency?
    - Could move to distilled water and water wetter set-up in the summer currently 50/50 boring HDPE folk? Was trying to avoid keeping with the street able car that is a robust track day car. (the coolant chemistries are critical for corrosion and lubricants in the system which is the other challenge)​
     
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  2. VoodooBoss

    VoodooBoss Rick Moderator

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    I’d try pulling the grille to see if that makes a difference. It’s a cheap option. But if you already have the billet grille don’t expect much improvement. Double check to make sure your radiator is boxed in properly with no leaks.
     
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  3. captdistraction

    captdistraction Not necessarily the Stig

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    Peaking at 265 is what I would call ideal. My car hit >300 at the last race still with a 948 Cooler in the system.

    I’m not sure it’s realistic to be able to flog these cars and keep oil temperatures beneath 250* short of having massively oversized cooling systems and chopped up bodywork, or keeping the RPMs in check, both difficult things to do when trying to set decent laptimes
     
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  4. SGwick

    SGwick TMO Intermediate

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    I removed my a/c condenser clearing the physical airflow towards the radiator
     
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  5. Drlee50

    Drlee50 TMO Advanced

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    I just pull my front grill totally out on hot days at Gingerman as well and no problem.
    Have you loaded the stock tune and tried it to see what the temps do? That would definitely be my next step. Extra fuel does have a cooling effect to a point. Any data longs of AFR during a session?

    kind of a joke but if you have the means.....---Next Mod would be to run that B on E85! That stuff burns really cool! And you might even pick up a bit more power.
     
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  6. BigTaco

    BigTaco TMO Addict

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    Arizona Boss created his own radiator enclosure and I'm pretty sure he saw lower temps. If memory serves he created up his own radiator enclosure due to necessity since Watson only has an enclosure available for 2013-14 mustangs. He beats his Boss on the track in door to door competition so...

    A radiator enclosure is (IMHO) one of those mods that is never really spoken about and overlooked when it comes to keeping fluid temps in check at the track....
     
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  7. xr7

    xr7 Overdosed on TMO

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    Chicagobob, do you have any ventilation in the hood?
     
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  8. TMSBOSS

    TMSBOSS TMO Addict

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    I run almost the exact same setup. I have a Cobra Jet grill, the same Ford ran on the BTA cars at Miller. I have a Capaldi HD radiator I picked up from another member here. I pull water temp from a sensor located in the block.
    In June I drove at Topeka with 100 deg temps. Once I remembered to shut off the A/C, temps never went above 225.

    Since you are using the stock computer generated temps, you may not be seeing actual temps. You are pulling temp out of the oil with the air to oil cooler, lowering actual coolant temps (boss cooler uses engine coolant to cool oil) which may not be accounted for.

    I would definitely pull the grill. Why not, its a free mod.(Sorry Grant, LOL) Be sure to tape the bumper under and in front of the grill to avoid scratching of the paint. Don't ask me how i know about this:rolleyes:.

    Lower oil temps are a good sign.
     
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  9. VoodooBoss

    VoodooBoss Rick Moderator

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    While hood venting helps it typically doesn't solve overheating problems. The key it to get as much air through the radiator as possible.
     
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  10. gww52

    gww52 TMO Advanced

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    948 and Roush billet grill almost worked to keep the oil temp below 260.
    Then I added the Trackspec hood vents.
    Now 250 pre cooler seems to be the max.
    I guess we'll see at Gingerman next week.
     
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  11. chicagobob

    chicagobob TMO Beginner

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    Thanks everyone
    - Oil temps, the oil cooler peak was captured by the Autometer gage not data logging, also the increase was pretty slow from ~235F before it settled out. With 70's outside, peak was ~250F. So I will take the good news on oil temps.

    - Thoughts, interesting on cool down back road drive, the inferred coolant temp and actual oil temps seemed dependent, actual oil temps would not go below the inferred coolant temps and the coolant temps took much longer to come down than with the boss302 coolant/oil cooler. Previously, the coolant temps dropped almost instantly after taking the load off the engine. After thinking, this makes some sense due to the large 660 oil cooler pre-heating the air reducing the delta T across the coolant radiator. You can see why the ford performance approach was the smaller air/oil plate cooler in conjunction with the boss302 coolant/oil cooler; this give more oil cooling capacity while allowing ambient air temps across more of the radiator. So much for decoupling the issues and why now one of the big variables is air flow across the radiator.

    - Radiator enclosure, Blackboss had good success and pictures he shared previously, but his set-up was without the air conditioner condenser.

    - Grille, TMSboss thanks for the tape reminder, the first time I did remember to put painters tape down, but would have likely forgotten the second time

    - Hood vent: nothing right now, completely stock with the mock factory hood vent (bought car used with it - not great for visibility). Vented hoods comments were mixed on effectiveness, nice to hear gww52 had an improvement. I do think the engine compartment was getting heat soaked that day, so anyway to increase flow or reduce back pressure might be helpful (even the fancy Caymans and 911's were having limp mode issues during the day due to the computers getting too hot)

    End of August the car is out at Blackhawk and the plan is – remove billet grill, put tune back to stock, see if I can tape closed any openings and remove hood gasket for some airflow. Then do the fall events without worry. Winter projects, will be boxing the radiator and thinking about hood options, trying to avoid having another radiator in the pile. I am also curious what the intake temps are now with the oil cooler in the mix heating the air.
     
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  12. TMSBOSS

    TMSBOSS TMO Addict

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    Intake air temp should not change. I let is before the radiatior
     
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  13. Coz

    Coz TMO Intermediate

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    Hood vents may not only help with cooling, they should also reduce front end/hood lift.
     
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  14. VoodooBoss

    VoodooBoss Rick Moderator

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    The main purpose of large hood vents is aero.
     
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  15. racer47

    racer47 All I got left is fast

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    This is absolutely true. Radiator fences are not hard to make and are a necessity not a nice to have.

    I did mine with thin sheet aluminum, double sided 3m tape and duct tape. Its not going to win any design awards but its mostly not visible anyway. I still have my a/c condenser in so that's not really a limiting factor. Just another obstacle to build around.

    I've got my car apart now. When I get back to installing the radiator fences, I'll try to remember to take a few pics. It is definitely worth the effort and costs very little money. Its more of a time and patients thing.
     
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  16. Grant 302

    Grant 302 OPM Spent: $328,347 Moderator

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    Don't do it!!! Or at least 'test' it if you don't believe me. If completely removed, the center section *WILL* ingest air, like the cowl induction on some old Chevys, NASCAR, etc. I've verified this two ways: With yarn tufts, and using magnehelic pressure gauges. Yarn tufts attached on the underside of the hood or in the plastic cowl area get sucked right in. Attached on the top side they may stay outside of the high pressure 'bubble' there, but that bubble is what would cause air to go *into* the engine bay. That was tested with a small piece left in the center just to support the hood. Now, I only have ~6" removed from both ends of the seal. That configuration does intermittently ingest a bit of air going straight, but vents on the inside side during a turn.

    Overall, I don't think your temps sound like a big problem, but I think they do highlight the issue with putting an oil to air cooler in *front* of the radiator...despite all of us putting them there. On the side or even behind the radiator would be better overall. In front of the radiator, the oil cooler makes a large section of the radiator useless.

    Boxing the radiator and cooler should help, but won't eliminate the issue with the oil cooler in front.

    . LOL. I'm all for *free* mods! Leaves more money for other, more expensive mods. :eek: ;) :D
     
  17. chicagobob

    chicagobob TMO Beginner

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    Good information on the hood vents. At high speeds you can definitely see the hood is dancing around.

    Grant 302 - thanks for the note on the hood gasket, your thoughts make sense and was in-line with my reservations on why I didn't do originally - but stretching for options at this point. I will not do it unless reversible.

    Racer47 - look forward to the boxing pics when you get them. Does your boxing strategy also bridge the gap between the condenser and radiator? If I remember right that gap has very little limitations to pressure losses out the sides.

    Intake temps - I was curious if they went up because the oil cooler heating up the air is in front of the condenser/radiator sandwich. Mostly a curiosity independent of the coolant temp challenges. With the rousch style cone type intake that came with the car the temps went way up on the track because it was sucking hood air, went back to stock and they went back to closer to ambient.
     
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  18. Grant 302

    Grant 302 OPM Spent: $328,347 Moderator

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    It's reversible if you don't damage the seal taking it off the pin/hooks. I reused mine and got a replacement just in case for ~$15, IIRC.
     
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  19. twistedneck

    twistedneck TMO Race

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    What a stellar thread. My first track day is coming this sept. 2012 GT w all the usual track mods. Setrabs new cooler and e85, tiger hood, etc.

    Please correct me:

    1. Either use cobra jet grill or remove
    2. Ditch the ac if possible to remove condenser.
    3. E85 should help
    4. Setrab cooler is good but not a full solution
    5. Must have dedicated oil temp gage
    6. Look at side baffling to harness more air
    7. My 2012 engine w the old piston jets will heat the oil up even more!
    8. Must stick w 5-20 due to the piston jets and pressure drops.

    Thoughts? Ill report back after the track day (Waterford hills in MI).
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  20. Grant 302

    Grant 302 OPM Spent: $328,347 Moderator

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    Proven effective in many cases.
    Wouldn't bother for your first track day.
    Should.
    I'd say any 2 oil coolers with a radiator upgrade should be a 'full' solution.
    I don't think so, at least not for your first day. Are you really going to be staring at your gauge going around the track? One that records peak temp might be helpful.
    Wouldn't do it in advance of your first day.
    True. But the whole point is to get the heat away from engine components anyway. Consider a larger pan and a 1 qt. overfill.
    I disagree completely, but call Ford Performance.

    I use 5W-50 in my '11 GT ~1 qt. overfilled. Use a breather, not PCV system catch cans or you'll ingest oil.

    The overfill does two things. More volume to prevent heat soak/saturation and protection from starvation in long sweepers like T8 at WSIR. I've actually seen two 'Vettes pop engines there while in the Streets of Willow paddock.

    Good luck, and good to see you around again lately.
     
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