Limp Mode / P061C. Looking for advice / help

[2012-Boss]

It might be enough. Inspecting the pulse ring is the step before replacing the PCM. The dealer used a bore scope to inspect mine, but they didn't see anything unusual.

My cars in the garage for the winter, so I have not data logged it. I will do so at Winterfest in a couple of weeks.

 

[Berol]

Thanks Steve. I'm leaning towards thinking this might be the problem. Still want to a visual comparison to the OEM piece.

If this is the problem, it almost has to be a manufacturing defect I didn't catch when I installed the Pulse Ring. There is just no way that use, rotation, clutch dust, etc. would have caused this type of damage (and even more specifically, only damaging the two teeth on either side of the missing tooth area).

Wish I could go to Winterfest. It's one of my favorites. Actually, Winterfest 2015 was the last time this car was able to do two full track days without breaking a clutch or limp mode.

 

[2012-Boss]

I know what you mean. Since last fall I have had a number of issues similar to yours plus two transmission failures. I am really hoping for a good season this year.

Maybe we will see each other at Superfest. It is at the end of April this year vs Memorial Day. We are sharing the track with Ferrari Challenge, so we can watch some racing in between sessions.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Berol:

I'm sorry to read that the intermittent limp mode is still dogging your Boss. I can't imigiane the frustration this issue has put you through.

Insofar as your pulse ring, I'm not sure if that could cause enough signal degradation to send the PCM into Limp Mode. Is it possible to call the Ford Performance hot line, (800-367-3788), for assistance and/or email them a link to the photos?

Anything is possible, but it's a lot of work to replace if it's not the cause.

Good luck,
302 Hi Pro

PS: Great photos for a $20. borescope camera!

 

[Berol]

Berol:

I'm sorry to read that the intermittent limp mode is still dogging your Boss. I can't imigiane the frustration this issue has put you through.

Insofar as your pulse ring, I'm not sure if that could cause enough signal degradation to send the PCM into Limp Mode. Is it possible to call the Ford Performance hot line, (800-367-3788), for assistance and/or email them a link to the photos?

Anything is possible, but it's a lot of work to replace if it's not the cause.

Good luck,
302 Hi Pro

Thanks Dave.

Yeah, I think I am going to give them a call. In the past they've been less than helpful, and a little gruff. I'm going to ask what they think, but I'm also tempted to point out that this issue was probably there when the part was new.

If the Pulse Ring is flawed, I'm not dropping the transmission a second time. It was no fun to do in the garage on jack stands and last time I had my Dad here to help me. I pretty much refuse to do that again, especially by myself. I'll pay a shop to drop the transmission the next time.

Given their track record on the phone, I doubt they'll give me any sort of compensation for that despite the fact that I'm having to do it based on a flawed $80 part I bought from them. But I'm going to push for it as hard as I possibly can. Even some sort of discount or credit on future purchases would be helpful. It really pisses me off that I spend as much as I do on their parts, often times paying more than for other aftermarket companies, only to have this part have flawed machining and cost me hundreds more to replace a second time (thousands more if you count towing costs and track fees for track time lost).

 

[k98dave]

Did the box in came in say "Made in China" like so much of their stuff is? No to hijack your post but I got one of their "93Cobra" aftermarket manifolds years ago just before they stopped selling them . It came in a Ford box but "made in china cast" in. In doing a gasket layout to match lower to a set of their GT40X heads found such a large casting core shift that I would have had to remove so much material it would have broken out of the wall!!! I called Ford Racing and they did say I wasn't the first guy to call on this issue and the operation over there was shut down due to "casting issues" They took it back and sent refund.


I have never been inside any of these so one question, how is this ring indexed to the flywheel/crank? Is that stamped boss in the picture a locator of some sort? I ask because if this is so critical to the engines timing management I surprised its a "stamping" which is typically not the way to hold specific tolerances. Looking at the close up pictures it appears the rounded edges of the teeth are typically from a stamping, not machined cut?

 

[Berol]

No mention of China on the packing. Made in April 2014, all printing was done in the USA. That's about all it says beyond the part number itself.

Photobucket is down, otherwise I'd post a picture. Long story short, the OEM/stock pulse ring looks much better, especially in the area of the missing tooth.

Leaning more and more towards a defective pulse ring.

 

[k98dave]

Like I said I'm and old school push rod motor guy so if I understand the basics the crank sensor is just reading this ring to tell the PCM the cranks position (ie # 1 TDC) for variable cam timing is that correct? So if your problem is intermittent is would seem to be electronic unless the pulse ring is shifting which doesn't seem possiable. Guess if your going to open it up again may as well put the stock ring back in and see what it does. But before you do since this pulse ring was made for the Cobra Jet application had you contacted any of those guys to see what they know. Worth a shot at least. Sure hope you get it figured out.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

I agree this seems like a long shot; the CKP is just a magnetic sensor, I'd not think those small variations in the teeth would make a difference.

That being said, you've tried plenty of other stuff so I think it's worth a shot at this point.

 

[Berol]

That being said, you've tried plenty of other stuff so I think it's worth a shot at this point.

LOL. Truer words have hardly been spoken.

Swung by the dealership today. Counter guy (service associate) was fairly clueless, but he did introduce me to a tech there. Described the whole problem to him. Plan of attack is:

1. Misfire relearn procedure with Ford IDS (personally I don't think this will fix anything, but I want to 100% rule out this quick, simple, cheap fix before moving on).

2. If that doesn't fix it, the dealership will pull the transmission, swap pulse rings and bleed the clutch for about 6 hours of labor.

3. If that doesn't fix it, new ECM it is.

I agree this seems like a long shot; the CKP is just a magnetic sensor, I'd not think those small variations in the teeth would make a difference.

Truth be told, the dealership tech agrees with you and suspects the ECM. Unfortunately there's no easy way to eliminate the pulse ring or the ECM as a potential problem. Either way, it starts getting expensive now.

 

[F.D. Sako]

Is this all covered under warranty?
If so, the ECU swap is a faster job and has a better chance of fixing the problem.

We all want this problem solved and this thread closed for good! lol

 

[TMSBOSS]

Electronics are usually covered under the Bumper to Bumper period of the warranty. Unless you can tie the repair to emissions its likely the 36 and 36 is long gone. Extended warranty.....Maybe.

 

[Berol]

Bumper to bumper is long gone. Car was purchased March 2011.

 

[TMSBOSS]

My Boss did the same thing after install of the new pulse ring. I also installed a new crank sensor, $25.00. After install I did a track day at my local track, no issues. I loaded up two weeks later and went to VIR for a 3 day event. Second run she nosed over coming out of the oak tree turn. Pulled codes and my reader said the relearn had failed. So off to Ford 30 minutes from the track. Cleared codes and they performed the relearn again. No issues since.

Starting again with a relearn may solve the problem. It worked for my toy.

 

[2012-Boss]

The more I think about it, the less I think it is the pulse ring.

The pulse ring and crank shaft position sensor are a reluctor ring and magnet. As the ring spins, the teeth generate an electric current as they pass the CPS (magnet). This creates a distinct electrical signal. The blank space in the ring signifies TDC on the #1 cylinder in the firing order. Basically, the missing tooth generates a loss / change in the signal that lasts twice as long as the other teeth.

If the ring is the problem, I would think you would see more misfires. That makes me think PCM. However, knowing that there is a flaw in the ring, the Ford diagnosis manual will require the dealer to replace the ring before the PCM.

The dealer will make you pay to swap an OEM ring back in. If you really think it is the PCM, you could try to convince them to replace it and you would eat the cost if it turns out to be the ring. If you speak to the Tech, he might also convince the service manager to replace the PCM vs the ring first - that's what happened in my case. Ford Engineering wanted them to replace the ring, but the local Tech and Service Manager disagreed based on the bore scope results.

The PCM is covered under the power train warranty, not the bumper to bumper.

 

[steveespo]

The only reason I suspect that the chipped teeth on the pulse ring may be the issue is of the minute differences between the CJ and normal pulse ring. The difference can no way be detected by the naked eye, something like .005" in the size of the TDC gap to allow 7500 to 8250 rpm calculations. Those chips are bigger than .005", on the street probably no issue, on track at high rpm the ECU may be getting confused where cylinder 1 is.

That being said a new ECU did fix 2012-Boss' problem.
Steve

 

[Berol]

The only reason I suspect that the chipped teeth on the pulse ring may be the issue is of the minute differences between the CJ and normal pulse ring. The difference can no way be detected by the naked eye, something like .005" in the size of the TDC gap to allow 7500 to 8250 rpm calculations. Those chips are bigger than .005", on the street probably no issue, on track at high rpm the ECU may be getting confused where cylinder 1 is.

That being said a new ECU did fix 2012-Boss' problem.
Steve

Thanks Steve.

Between the teeth not being right, and the issue starting immediately after putting the pulse ring in with the new clutch, I still suspect the pulse ring. I'm not ruling out the ECM but it would have had to have failed on the same day my clutch failed. Flukes like that happen, but it's not likely. Pursuing the Pulse Ring first, then the ECM if it goes that far.

The PCM is covered under the power train warranty, not the bumper to bumper.

This is good to know. If it's the Pulse Ring, I'm going to try to push Ford Racing for some kind of discount or voucher or something. If it's the ECM, I'm going to push hard to have it looked at before March 11 and have it fixed under warranty. I've never been on an aftermarket tune, hopefully they would replace it for free.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Berol:

Since this all began just after the Clutch Assy and the Pulse Ring, you might well be on the right track, as in addition to the PR gear teeth chips, it very well may have other manufacturing defects causing this issue. I have a suspicion that the ring teeth were chipped somehow before the install, (perhaps during manufacture), as I can't see see this damage happening after the install.

IIRC, you installed the PR, so we can rule out damage during the install, correct? So, if the above is plausible, and this cause of failure is in the PR circuit, I would inspect, and/or test, (to the extent possible), the entire PR circuit from the CKP sensor to the PCM pin connectors, (continuity harness test).

I remember you replaced many sensors, but did that include the CKP sensor as well? Assuming,,(dislike typing it word), but if this circuit is the cause, best to check everything externally, and go for the Trans R&R and PR replacement last.

Just thinking out loud so to speak, (type).

Good luck and keep the updates coming, we're going to find this, and help you put an end to this thread! Keep the faith!

302 Hi Pro

 

[Berol]

Berol:

IIRC, you installed the PR, so we can rule out damage during the install, correct? So, if the above is plausible, and this cause of failure is in the PR circuit, I would inspect, and/or test, (to the extent possible), the entire PR circuit from the CKP sensor to the PCM pin connectors, (continuity harness test).

I remember you replaced many sensors, but did that include the CKP sensor as well? Assuming,,(dislike typing it word), but if this circuit is the cause, best to check everything externally, and go for the Trans R&R and PR replacement last.

Just thinking out loud so to speak, (type).

Good luck and keep the updates coming, we're going to find this, and help you put an end to this thread! Keep the faith!

302 Hi Pro

Thanks Dave.

Yes, my PR was installed with the clutch. My Dad and I installed everything. I'm a bit ashamed to admit I never compared the OEM PR that came out of the car to the FRPP going into the car. My Dad was under the car, mentioned something about needing the new PR so he could put it in. I opened the package, noticed nothing egregiously wrong with it and handed it to him. Hindsight is 20/20, but I should have compared the two much more closely. I too suspect it's been flawed all along.

I'm on my Third CKP sensor, and the wiring harness is completely new as well.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

When do you go in for the swap?