steveespo new bullet for the 21 Car

[OPMustang Tim]

Cylinders 1&5 are where the damage is on my 5.2. Definitely not oil starvation. Trap door GT500 pan, high volume pump, windage tray and crank scraper, and never lost pressure in the corners or under braking at Pitt or at Road America two weeks before. I believe the failure started with a dropped intake valve in cylinder #1. See photo taken through the see through block of the #1/5 rod journal. No evidence of oil starvation there.View attachment 87976

Did you remove the rod bolts or is that as found?

 

[Fabman]

Cylinders 1&5 are where the damage is on my 5.2. Definitely not oil starvation. Trap door GT500 pan, high volume pump, windage tray and crank scraper, and never lost pressure in the corners or under braking at Pitt or at Road America two weeks before. I believe the failure started with a dropped intake valve in cylinder #1. See photo taken through the see through block of the #1/5 rod journal. No evidence of oil starvation there.View attachment 87976

Man, that breaks my heart to see this....

 

[Fabman]

View attachment 87978View attachment 87979View attachment 87980View attachment 87981 I didn’t drop a valve , but found out I had a fuel line that dropped fuel pressure from 60 psi to 40 psi and below at WOT . Also on start up on new engine the only used part ,oil pressure sender was blowing oil out the end thru the wires.
I should have put car into neutral.

Breaks my heart to see this too....

 

[steveespo]

View attachment 87978View attachment 87979View attachment 87980View attachment 87981 I didn’t drop a valve , but found out I had a fuel line that dropped fuel pressure from 60 psi to 40 psi and below at WOT . Also on start up on new engine the only used part ,oil pressure sender was blowing oil out the end thru the wires.
I should have put car into neutral.

I will be adding fuel pressure gauge to my new fuel feed setup -8 AN. My car has fuel pressure sensors so it would have a code if there was fuel starvation. That is a damaged crank journal!!

 

[steveespo]

Did you remove the rod bolts or is that as found?

As found. Think the bolts failed first? Second rod the head is still in but there is a 1/8-3/16" gap between the cap and rod.

 

[steveespo]

Your engine knowledge is way more than mine and definitely not questioning you in any way. I'm just thinking out loud and learning. Ok good pressure. No issues for oil at the bottom of the engine. High flow. Front of engine went. Is it possible to starve the heads in the perfect storm with oil being "pooled" in the rear of the heads? If so, can that affect the valves and seats over time?

Here's an article about pressure and gpm I found.

Oil Starvation

"The cornerstone of any lubrication system is the engine's demand for oil," says Mike Osterhaus, VP Aftermarket Products, Melling Engine Parts. He explains that the engine's highest specific rate of demand (gallons per engine revolution) is at hot idle.

www.enginebuildermag.com

IDK maybe I'm digging and just being a goof.

Oil in a Coyote goes to the main bearings starting at the front and also feeds the heads with a vertical Y passage up to the front of the heads which then feeds the oil galleys under the lifters and the cam towers. All goes front to back. I also had balancing pipe on the cylinder ends so if one head had blocked flow it could be supplied from the other head at least partially. The failure on this engine is all up front, if it was an oiling issue the rear cylinders would have suffered too, not the case.

 

[KazarS197]

Oil in a Coyote goes to the main bearings starting at the front and also feeds the heads with a vertical Y passage up to the front of the heads which then feeds the oil galleys under the lifters and the cam towers. All goes front to back. I also had balancing pipe on the cylinder ends so if one head had blocked flow it could be supplied from the other head at least partially. The failure on this engine is all up front, if it was an oiling issue the rear cylinders would have suffered too, not the case.

Thank you for the information! I appreciate you taking the time to explain. I was very selective with joining TMO 3 ish years ago and this is why. You guys are the best!

 

[steveespo]

Well I got the spent bullet out of the engine bay and began installing the GT500 pump with new gears into the new bullet. Things progressing well as I also dropped the new rear bumper, new GT500 style nose and hood at the body shop for a coat of Oxford White.

 

[steveespo]

Sal you are up way to early in the morning brother. LOL

 

[Bill Pemberton]

It is only around 5:30 in Calipornia, and most of us track addicts are up that early in our respective Time Zones, ha! Got to get up early to see what all the other TMO sickos are doing , asking about , etc. to make sure we stay ahead of them, ha.

New car parts are sure pretty!

 

[Fabman]

Sal you are up way to early in the morning brother. LOL

I only get around 4 hours a night.....it's exhausting.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I don't care who you are , that is funny!!

 

[misterpeanut]

This is such a bummer, but I am really curious to know if the rod bolts failed or what the cause was.

 

[302BOB]

Sal you are up way to early in the morning brother. LO

Tymeslayer once equated that to rust never sleeping, referring that to me LOL.....

...... Those speakers are almost as big as the ones the kids bring down to Seaside in the summer.............

 

[Dave_W]

Those oversized amps are hilarious. Almost as funny as Geddy Lee's backline in the last several Rush tours. Rotisserie chicken boxes, vending machines, coin-op laundry machines (with backstage crew feeding clothes & coins every few songs).

 

[steveespo]

This is such a bummer, but I am really curious to know if the rod bolts failed or what the cause was.

Rod bolt failure is the definitive cause. 3 bolts stretched and broke, one stretched and held on. We believe assembly error where stretch upon initial torquing was not checked, but this is speculation cannot get firm answer from the builder yet. PSA: When assembling connecting rods it is very prudent to follow the rod manufacturers instructions on bolt cleaning, lubrication torque values and bolt stretch measurements. All of these are critical and were part of the reason I left the rotating assembly to a professional engine builder. There is a slim possibility that material defects played a part but with two rods failing the same way on the same journal I don't believe that is the case.

 

[Mad Hatter]

That really sucks and I feel your pain.... I for one, will not be building a forged Coyote motor EVER again. After breaking three motors at the track, am very happy with what I ended up with AED. These engines are way more complicated then they were 20 years ago and given the huge HP and rpm they achieve, its no surprise. I thought that the abilities were just not up to snuff down here in Chile, but looks like it happens just about anywhere.

The shop I work with is building a crazy blown motor from scratch that's shooting for 1300rwhp in a gen3. I told them they are mad and its going to blow up but what can you do..... Seeing that your Pro built motor died so soon just shows that these things are hard to get right (never mind asking them to double the HP!)

 

[captdistraction]

Rod bolt failure is the definitive cause. 3 bolts stretched and broke, one stretched and held on. We believe assembly error where stretch upon initial torquing was not checked, but this is speculation cannot get firm answer from the builder yet. PSA: When assembling connecting rods it is very prudent to follow the rod manufacturers instructions on bolt cleaning, lubrication torque values and bolt stretch measurements. All of these are critical and were part of the reason I left the rotating assembly to a professional engine builder. There is a slim possibility that material defects played a part but with two rods failing the same way on the same journal I don't believe that is the case.

My builder talks about rod bolts typically being usable several times (particularly for the higher end stuff like what you get with ARP), but every time we've built a motor he's demanded brand new virgin bolts to sacrifice (and ouch the pain on manley 7/16 ARP2000's). I think the latter says a lot about usage vs what he first said. He believes they really don't stretch much, but hitting target torque with the parameters of the fastener is super critical on the rod bolt more than any other bolt on the engine. '

That really sucks, but we rarely get to claim our motors were blown up by something cool and exciting.

 

[honeybadger]

My builder talks about rod bolts typically being usable several times (particularly for the higher end stuff like what you get with ARP), but every time we've built a motor he's demanded brand new virgin bolts to sacrifice (and ouch the pain on manley 7/16 ARP2000's). I think the latter says a lot about usage vs what he first said. He believes they really don't stretch much, but hitting target torque with the parameters of the fastener is super critical on the rod bolt more than any other bolt on the engine. '

That really sucks, but we rarely get to claim our motors were blown up by something cool and exciting.

Tim at MPR says similar things about the rod bolts. Interestingly, I'm still on the original ARP bolts that we used with my Callie billet rods. They have about 80 hours on them at this point. Interesting to see the discussion above.

@steveespo - did your builder blueprint the engine? Do you have a build sheet with all the torques, clearances, parts used, etc.

 

[steveespo]

My builder talks about rod bolts typically being usable several times (particularly for the higher end stuff like what you get with ARP), but every time we've built a motor he's demanded brand new virgin bolts to sacrifice (and ouch the pain on manley 7/16 ARP2000's). I think the latter says a lot about usage vs what he first said. He believes they really don't stretch much, but hitting target torque with the parameters of the fastener is super critical on the rod bolt more than any other bolt on the engine. '

That really sucks, but we rarely get to claim our motors were blown up by something cool and exciting.

I would bet the mistake happened here:
FASTENERS
PROPER FASTENER INSTALLATION WILL PREVENT ROD FAILURE!! Ninety percent of all rod failure are due
to incorrect fastener installation and/or maintenance. Fasteners supplied are as follows:
Torque Value w/30wt. Oil Recommended
During Final Torque Value Range
Bolt Bolt Assembly At Bolt w/30wt. Oil
Part No. Diam. Material U.H.L. Manley Performance Stretch In ft./lbs.
01/26/10
42239 7/16” 8740 1.800” 90 ft. lbs. .0059” - .0063” 85 - 95
42386 7/16” 8740 1.650” 80 ft. lbs. .0050” - .0054” 80 - 85
42361 7/16” 8740 1.600” 80 ft. lbs. .0052” - .0056” 80 - 85
42354 7/16” 8740 1.450” 95 ft. lbs. .0050” - .0054” 90 - 100
42383 3/8” 8740 1.500” 55 ft. lbs. .0047” - .0052” 50 - 60
42350 3/8” ARP 2000 1.500” 60 ft. lbs. .0058” - .0062” 55 - 65
42351 3/8” ARP 2000 1.600” 65 ft. lbs. .0058” - .0062” 60 - 70
42390 7/16” ARP 2000 1.450” 90 ft. lbs. .0050” - .0060” 90 - 100
42249 7/16” ARP 2000 1.600” 95 ft. lbs. .0060” - .0065” 90 - 100
42384 7/16” ARP 2000 1.650” 95 ft. lbs. .0064” - .0068” 90 - 100
42391 7/16” ARP 2000 1.850” 105 ft. lbs. .0069” - .0073” 100 - 110
The parting line area and threads should be THOROUGHLY cleaned prior to assembly and be sure to seat the
rod cap to the body of the rod evenly, otherwise the cap can become cocked and could result in cross
threading of the fastener(s). This is best achieved by alternately tightening the fasteners until the cap is fully
seated to the rod body. Fasteners MUST be submerged in 30 wt. oil or equivalent. Do not use moly or engine
lube. Bolt stretch value should be checked against torque prior to installation. DO NOT OVER TORQUE!
IMPORTANT: Free length of fasteners should be measured and recorded prior to installation. If free length of
fasteners increases by more than .001” at any time the fastener in question should be replaced immediately or
failure may result.
NOTE: It is not recommended to remove any material from the connecting rod cap for balancing purposes.
Manley Performance Products 1960 Swarthmore Ave. Lakewood, NJ 08701
Phone 732-905-3366 Fax 732-905-3010 www.manleyperformance.com