Where's Wally

[RR2334]

Reply #35 on this thread shows 3655 total weight for Wally.

 

[cloud9]

Gary
I would say RA is a little tougher on brakes than VIR but similar, only 2 really heavy braking zones at VIR vs 3 at RA. You will need race pads or about 5 sets of OEM pads for a week end at RA, you seem to be the hardest on brakes out of all of us, that's also why you are the quickest 8) The S55o chassis is heavier than our S197s probably by 100 lbs for the 350s and 150 lbs for my GT. I think Nick posted his scale weights. Can't wait to see Nick running sub 2:05 laps at VIR.
Steve

Hah not sure about the quickest, but based on that comparison you're probably right on wear rate. Sounds like Rick may be testing some new pads and hopefully that will give us a race pad option. I'm really not looking forward to mid-day pad changes every day :

 

[cloud9]

Just finished working on the car after my first track day in the 350. Ran the North course at VIR for the first time. More than half the lap is common with the full course that I've run in the Boss. Back to back comparison will be easier after tomorrow on the full course.

Will provide more info after tomorrow's session. Three headlines from today: 1) It's fast and easier to drive fast than the Boss. 2) It get's lot's of attention -- lost count of the number of visitors to the garage. 3) Stock pads generate lot's of dust and only lasted 1 day.

More to come....

Anxious to hear about the tires today Nick.

 

[Black Boss]

Can't wait to see Nick running sub 2:05 laps at VIR.
Steve

Sorry to disappoint Steve, ran a 2:06.8. 3.1 seconds better than my best ever Boss time. Not too shabby

Anxious to hear about the tires today Nick.

It's a qualified yes on the Hoosier R7 315 tires -- very tight to fender, especially on rear, and front needs 2* camber with plates to clear fender. 350 sway bar is softer (shorter links) than the R, not sure whether that will impact vertical wheel travel.

Will post more details and impressions tomorrow........

 

[VoodooBoss]

Sorry to disappoint Steve, ran a 2:06.8. 3.1 seconds better than my best ever Boss time. Not too shabby

Nick was that R7 to R7 on both cars? Also interested to know if you run the 2's on track and if so how they held up.

 

[Black Boss]

Nick was that R7 to R7 on both cars? Also interested to know if you run the 2's on track and if so how they held up.

Yes R7's on both the Boss and the R. Will post info on PSC2's tomorrow when I get home, but in short they are quick, but do wear....

 

[cloud9]

Sorry to disappoint Steve, ran a 2:06.8. 3.1 seconds better than my best ever Boss time. Not too shabby


It's a qualified yes on the Hoosier R7 315 tires -- very tight to fender, especially on rear, and front needs 2* camber with plates to clear fender. 350 sway bar is softer (shorter links) than the R, not sure whether that will impact vertical wheel travel.

Will post more details and impressions tomorrow........

Congratulations on the lap time! Want to hear more on the camber and tire wear, edges versus center. With the MM plates 2+* is possible no? I want to get mone installed but was waiting for your results.

Check the inside rolled edges of your febders closely. Upon closer inspection I had an awful lot of rubber painted onto my front fender edges with the 315s on the Boss. No tire damage but they were rubbing.

 

[CSL]

It's a qualified yes on the Hoosier R7 315 tires -- very tight to fender, especially on rear, and front needs 2* camber with plates to clear fender. 350 sway bar is softer (shorter links) than the R, not sure whether that will impact vertical wheel travel.

Will post more details and impressions tomorrow........

Thanks for this info. RE: the rears, I am assuming very tight to fender means vertically? Then another question....the 315 R7 is a 12.5" section width and 12" tread width; a 325 R888 is 13" section width with 12.5 tread width. The difference in tire height is 26.1 on the R7 compared to 26.7. Do you envision fitment issues with the 325 R888 on a track pack car?

 

[8250RPM]

I'm not 100%. But I do not think the MM plates are going to give 2 degrees of camber. 1.75 is about max. I may be wrong though. This is a reason why I'm switching to Vorshlag plates instead.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Three seconds faster; wow.

 

[Black Boss]

Went to VIR last weekend, ran the GT350R for the first time, and also ran into Phil, another 350 owner and a very nice guy who will hopefully join us on the forum soon!

OK, Here’s my subjective track review of the GT350R versus the Boss, based on 2 those track days at VIR. My 350 is Stock with roll bar, race seat, harness and camber plates, the Boss has 5 year’s worth of mods – see my signature for details. I’ve run the VIR full course about 10 days, so the full course was a “known”. Day 1 was on VIR North course, which I hadn’t run before, but 75% of it is common with the full course.

First Impressions; Day 1 on Pilot Sport Cup 2’s with recommended alignment settings, including 1.75* of front camber: Took it steady for the first session as this was the first time out in the car and temps were in the high 30’s. It was immediately clear that this car is quick, not at all upset by curbs, and very balanced driving at 7/10’s with fantastic damping and good brake performance. One other thing, inside the cabin, this car is quiet and smooth compared to the Boss. Interesting as several people who were standing at pit wall commented on the fantastic sound! Pushed harder in session 2 as the temps were getting close to 50. I was starting to get (too?) confident and got brake fade going into T1 (a 140-45mph braking zone) ABS never kicked in and the harder I hit the pedal, the less braking I got! So the car was christened with it’s first (minor) agricultural excursion rather than risking a spin. Session 3; I upped the pace a bit more, while going steady on late braking; on 3 occasions going through a section where the car gets un-weighted under throttle I noticed what seemed to be yaw control from the ESC when rear breaks loose, in Track Mode. This session I got a point by from a very good GT3 driver who I couldn’t stay with in the Boss, last October. Last session, disabled ESC (same procedure as the Boss) and never had the same sensation of yaw control – lap times also improved by over a second Pushing the car hard results in a fair bit of understeer. Here’s a video of my best lap on the North course. Will post day 2 reflections after dinner!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT8_dSRJnVk

 

[cloud9]

Impressive video Nick. Thanks for the observations and writeup. You addressed two big questions I had. The first was the brakes. Was the fade pad related or fluid? I'm assumi6it was the pads. Also I figured you would need to disable AdvanceTrac even in Track Mode. The question is does order matter? i.e. do you have to first put it in Track Mode, then disable it?

What was the max camber you could have gotten with the MM plates? How did the tires wear at -1.7*?

 

[VoodooBoss]

Thanks for sharing your comments. Can you compare and contrast the two different tires you ran? Also what about the understeer with the two tires? I know the TP cars are setup differently but Gary and I have been wondering if going square will reduce the understeer.

 

[Black Boss]

Was the fade pad related or fluid? The question is does order matter? i.e. do you have to first put it in Track Mode, then disable it?

What was the max camber you could have gotten with the MM plates? How did the tires wear at -1.7*?

See post below. 1) I'm thinking it was pads as the ambients were higher on day 2 when rotor transfer had improved and there was less fade. 2) I went Track mode then ESC Off. 3) The MM plates are good for at least 2*

 

[Black Boss]

Continuing my Track experience:

End of Day one the OE front pads were done, so I had to replace them – down to 2mm at their thinnest. Also lot’s of brake dust, but easy to remove. Front Left tire (PSC2) had a lot of wear on the outside, so I increased front camber from 1.75* to 2.0*. Also switched to Hoosier 315 R7’s front and rear that I wanted to test. Had checked static clearance on the lift at home, but was not entirely confident about rubbing the fender both front and rear, under load so took the first 2 sessions easy, progressively increasing pace—will post tire fit experience in a separate post, tomorrow. The Hoosiers, being square, significantly reduced (but did not eliminate) understeer. At the end of day 2, outside wear on the Left hand front R7, was way less than on the PSC2 -- probably due to the reduced understeer and slightly increased camber.

On Day 2 Brake performance improved with the second pair of pads, maybe because rotor transfer of pad material increased. Also wear on day 2 was lower with 5+ mm of pad left after day 2 in spite of harder braking. That said, I’ll be looking for race pads, the OE pads are good, but do not have the initial bite or reliability of not fading that I was used to on the Boss. By session 3, I was really appreciating the wide power band; 3,800 all the way up to 8,250rpm. Fewer shift points on this track versus the Boss. Also the gear shifting is a significant improvement – the throw is a little long, but the gates are way more precise. Ambient temps on Day 2 were close to 60, Peak CHT was 204*, Oil 244*.

There's no doubt that this car is a significant step forward in terms of capabilty -- the suspension is nowhere near as stiff as my Boss but the dampers do a fantastic job of managing the transients. The uphill Essess at VIR are a great test: in the Boss your having to manage the transitions carefully, in the 350 you can get more onto the gattors and still be on the throttle 8)

Here's a video of my fast lap -- still lot's of room for time improvements -- I hit traffic going into Oak Tree and would brake later with reliable brakes (excuses!), plus I've had lot's more seat time in the Boss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giVeonaUfi0

So, subjectively the bottom line: 1) Which is the fastest; No question The GT350R is a real track weapon which can keep up or pass cars costing way, way more, I was expecting it to be about 2 seconds quicker around VIR based on reports and my limited laps in an R at LS so 3 seconds was a huge surprise given I only had 4 sessions in the R on the same full circuit at VIR 2) Which is the most rewarding to drive; that's probably not a fair question as it's too early to tell, The Boss is a more visceral experience and feels more like a racecar, it's harder to drive well, and a little slower, but feels more connected to the track. The R is more sophisticated and the damping is so great you can push it really hard, making the limit's more difficult to find. The fantastic news is you get out of both cars at the end of a track day feeling like you have the best price/performance car on the planet 8)

I'll spend some time tomorrow analyzing the AIM data for Boss on Hoos/350 on PSC2/350 on Hoos for some objective data and will post later this week....

 

[VoodooBoss]

Thanks for sharing your experience at VIR. So if the TP understeers more than the R it would be safe to start square on the tire sizes for the TP either in a 305 or 315. From there adding the shorter R RSB end links would stiffen the rear a bit bringing more grip to the front for the TP if needed. I'm going to run my first track day completely stock though to get a baseline before making any changes.

@ArizonaBOSS
@mattlqx

 

[Black Boss]

Thanks for sharing your experience at VIR. So if the TP understeers more than the R it would be safe to start square on the tire sizes for the TP either in a 305 or 315. From there adding the shorter R RSB end links would stiffen the rear a bit bringing more grip to the front for the TP if needed. I'm going to run my first track day completely stock though to get a baseline before making any changes.

@ArizonaBOSS
@mattlqx

The R has stiffer front springs which would, in theory, increase understeer -- maybe the shorter rear end links offset this along with the aero. Not sure.

I will post details of my experience with Hoos 315 fitment tomorrow, but I wouldn't guarantee they'll fit as I don't know how the different suspension rates will impact vertical wheel travel. They are real close to both front and rear fenders on the R.

 

[cloud9]

Great story! When you say the MM plates are good for 2*, do you mean an additional 2* over stock or 2* max negative camber? Based on how the edges of the R7 wore, donyou plan to increase camber from -2*?

 

[Black Boss]

The MM plates are good for a total of 2*. I can actually get more on the right -- probably 2.2*, but left is maxed out at 2.0*. I'm going to pull the front wheels later today and fully inspect the tires before deciding on camber.

Meanwhile, just compared the AIM data for my best Boss (Black trace) versus R (Green trace) laps. Top box is Speed, followed by Longitudinal Accel, Lateral Accel and finally Cumulative time delta:



My observations:
1) R is faster on all the straights by as much as 2.3 mph -- no surprise
2) Mid corner speeds are significantly improved -- Oak Tree (the slowest) is 48.0 versus 44.2mph
3) The only place that the Boss was quicker was the approach to 6 -- but I lifted here to wait for the pass on the red P car (see video)
4) Lateral g's are higher in the R -- no surprise

Now for the interesting piece -- I was braking better in the Boss -- note that in all the braking zones, the Black line dips on the cumulative time chart, also peak braking g in the Boss was 1.25 versus 1.18 in the R. Assuming my interpretation of the data is correct (and it certainly matches my subjective assessment) it looks like there's a bunch more lap time up for grabs with more aggressive pads.

Would love others observations who have more experience interpreting AIM data @ArizonaBOSS

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

@Black Boss add one more PID measure to your graphs "A_Mcyl_Press_E" to pull up your Master Cylinder (brake) pressure.

From the GPS speed graph it looks like you were braking a little earlier in the R, but also back on the throttle and accelerating out sooner, as well.

On the lowest graph (lap delta), treat it like a derivative; anywhere the black line (B302) has positive slope you were going slower than the reference lap (350R), but there are a number of places where it has negative slope (indicating you were faster in those spots in the Boss). Example, Turns 5-6 as indicated on the AIM says your methods in the Boss were faster. Same for T1-2, and the approach to T7.

With that in mind, if you study those areas and look at your steering wheel angle (s_R_STR_WH_ANG), brake pressure (as noted above), and throttle (P_Pedal) you should be able to tell what you can alter to integrate those faster methods into your 350R driving.

Although I'm now guessing since you are only showing GPS data, you didn't/don't have the CANbus info stream?